Shotgun skill standards and competition crossover

[farscott]

For me, 3 Gun has been a mixed blessing as I run it with the guns I actually use (or am planning to use) for HD. So I am not the most competitive even in Limited or Tactical classes. But I have learned a lot, including keeping track of the rounds remaining, how to float a round on the carrier, and, especially, that Benelli thumb is real with my stock M1 Super 90. Rather than open up the loading port, I have learned/adopted two techniques:

1) Use the knuckle of my thumb to drive the shells into the magazine tube. This works remarkably well with my short fingers and gloves as the glove material is taut over the thumb and cannot get caught in the magazine tube.

2) Insure my thumb is straight if I want to use the thumb tip to load. Still working on this as I tend to bend the thumb under the stress of shooting on the clock.

I believe 3 Gun can be a benefit to the shooter focusing on defensive use of the shotgun IF the shooter resists the temptation to become "gamey". It is a hard thing to resist when one is getting thrashed by the competition.

[TCinVA]

I mean, it's almost like drag racing with a shotgun has very little overlap to fighting with a shotgun and the gear reflects that.

Or something.

[TheRoland]

I mean, it's almost like drag racing with a shotgun has very little overlap to fighting with a shotgun and the gear reflects that.

Or something.

To play devil's advocate, people said this about pistol and rifle for decades.

[ASH556]

To play devil's advocate, people said this about pistol and rifle for decades.

EXACTLY!

[ASH556]

1. Opening a loading port: OMG, it's just like a beveled magwell on a pistol. But making a gun faster/easier to load without causing injury to your fingers/thumb might get you kilt in da skreetz

2. Magazine tube length: About flush with the end of your barrel is a good rule of thumb. We've already determined that around 20" is manageable for shotgun length and that SBS's make life easier in confined spaces, but may have other tradeoffs. We vehemently buck neutered capacity pistol mags and small guns that hold fewer BB's, but somehow with the gauge, a smaller magazine and having to load more frequently makes you more "tactical" and less "gamer?" Right on bro!

3. A skilled action shotgunner (3gun or otherwise) can load 8 rounds in about 3 seconds with a quad load. An unskilled amateur like myself can do it in 6. While moving. Yet somehow the concept of plucking one round out of a side saddle and topping off a gun or port loading it is going to end the world?

4. Ammo: "Gamerz only shoot birdshot, tacticalninjawizards shoot real buck and slugz!" Cool story bro. Do you shoot USPSA or whatever other pistol training you do with only 124 +P GDHP too? I bet not. I've shot buck, slug, and bird all in one single stage of a shotgun match. The buck was 00 Filtecontrol because #patternsmatter . The slugs were 1500 FPS Remington Sluggers. And??? That matters why???

5. Gear like the Matchsaverz that positions a round just forward of the loading port is a perfect example of competition finding a better way to do something. Your ejection port load from a Matchsaverz will be markedly faster than going either over top or underneath from a side saddle.

I finished the P&S "Gauge" modcast by the way, and it's funny because the last 27 minutes was the questions I wanted answered, "What skills and drills are the standard for shotgunning?" There was a lot of backslapping and chuckling in the Fraternal Order of the Gauge and only two were mentioned: "Rolling Thunder" and Paul (I think) mentioned one he uses called "Shoot, Scoot, Load & Boogie." I couldn't find anything from Google on that one. Rolling Thunder just looks to be stand, load, shoot, repeat with increasing rounds: Load 1, shoot 1, Load 2, shoot 2, etc up until 5. OK. At one point @SpyderMan2k4 specifically asks about using a timer in a shotgun class because he's never seen one and Steve Fisher says it's not worth it because the clientele is so basic they're just trying to build reps and teach people to load and manage recoil. This exactly proves the point from my OP about my hesitation in paying my time and money to take a shotgun class. I'm not looking for a class on how to be a better 3gun shotgunner. I'm looking for a class to teach me higher performance in the implementation of the shotgun. But, if a person is even moderately successful in a sport like 3gun, they don't need to pay a professional to watch them load one at a time from a side saddle and shoot standing still.

[ASH556]

I mean, it's almost like drag racing with a shotgun has very little overlap to fighting with a shotgun and the gear reflects that.

Or something.

Since we're labeling gear, is this a "drag racing" shotgun or a "fighting" shotgun?

[TCinVA]

To play devil's advocate, people said this about pistol and rifle for decades.

And it was true. The handguns being used in competition even in the late 1980's looked nothing like the guns people were carrying for defensive use.

https://americanhandgunner.com/wp-co...8/12/HND87.pdf

Even the revolvers were tricked out.

What did carry over was the ability to shoot accurately at speed...especially delivering multiple rounds on a relatively tight target quickly...and there was significant carryover to the things you have to do to fight effectively with a pistol because pistols are such weak gruel when it comes to stopping the hostile actions of a threat.

In 3 gun the ability to get a shotgun on target and make accurate shots with it rapidly will certainly carry over...but the fact that the stages have the round counts they do necessitating loading techniques that are only ever evident in 3 gun is where you really do see a stark difference in fighting with a shotgun versus gaming with one.

People defending their homes don't usually find themselves emptying a shotgun to fend off home invaders. Police officers sometimes empty a shotgun in a fight, but usually because they were not able to employ the gun effectively. (Miami firefight, Baltimore bus incident, etc)

Ed Mireles could have certainly used a speedy reload...of course, that would have necessitated actually having extra ammunition. Most uniformed professionals who are toting a shotgun don't even have extra ammunition for them. They've got what's in the magazine and that's it. If they do have extra ammo, it's either in a side saddle or a butt cuff on the gun.

The round counts in 3 gun brought about all sorts of specific gear that is useless outside of the context of gaming with the shotgun. Nobody is running around in real life with a shell caddie that holds 8-12 spare shells in a position where you can quad load them. They are bulky and impractical if you are doing literally anything else besides running through a 3 gun shotgun stage.

[ASH556]

The round counts in 3 gun brought about all sorts of specific gear that is useless outside of the context of gaming with the shotgun. Nobody is running around in real life with a shell caddie that holds 8-12 spare shells in a position where you can quad load them. They are bulky and impractical if you are doing literally anything else besides running through a 3 gun shotgun stage.

I 100% agree with this. You'll see shotgun shells in the urinals at a 3gun match because those caddies don't even hold the shells securely enough that you don't drop one while trying to get your dick out and take a piss.

Quad-loading is game specific. There are lots of other things that aren't. Like Paul Sharpe said, "think street, train sport."

Your other argument about "how often do people need to reload a shotgun" also translates over to pistol though. How often in a civillian or LEO shooting do you see the need for a speed reload of the pistol? Yet we all consider that to be a crucial skill.

[TCinVA]

I finished the P&S "Gauge" modcast by the way, and it's funny because the last 27 minutes was the questions I wanted answered, "What skills and drills are the standard for shotgunning?" There was a lot of backslapping and chuckling in the Fraternal Order of the Gauge and only two were mentioned: "Rolling Thunder" and Paul (I think) mentioned one he uses called "Shoot, Scoot, Load & Boogie."

There was nobody on the podcast named Paul.

I couldn't find anything from Google on that one. Rolling Thunder just looks to be stand, load, shoot, repeat with increasing rounds: Load 1, shoot 1, Load 2, shoot 2, etc up until 5. OK. At one point @SpyderMan2k4 specifically asks about using a timer in a shotgun class because he's never seen one and Steve Fisher says it's not worth it because the clientele is so basic they're just trying to build reps and teach people to load and manage recoil.

That is absolutely not what Steve Fisher said. You seem to be injecting arguments into people's statements that those people were not making.

I spoke about using a timer in classes after Adam brought it up and stated that in most shotgun classes you absolutely don't see them because there aren't many people out there who are good enough at teaching shotgun to get people to the point where they can begin to hold them to some time standards. Most shotgun training professionals are subjected to is, as discussed at length on the podcast, familiarization fire at best. It's not meaningful training.

I use a timer in every class, and I have students shoot timed drills in every class...including shooting the Rangemaster qualification. Which is usually a pretty tough thing for beginning level folks to do since the vast majority of them have zero experience with a shotgun until they show up to such a class.

This exactly proves the point from my OP about my hesitation in paying my time and money to take a shotgun class. I'm not looking for a class on how to be a better 3gun shotgunner. I'm looking for a class to teach me higher performance in the implementation of the shotgun. But, if a person is even moderately successful in a sport like 3gun, they don't need to pay a professional to watch them load one at a time from a side saddle and shoot standing still.

You shouldn't waste your money on a shotgun class.

Clearly nobody on that podcast has anything to teach you. Especially not "Paul" Everybody on there is just not batting in your league.

You clearly have a comprehensive command of the gun and how to use it, so you shouldn't waste your time training with tacti-fuds who don't teach people how to do anything but stand there and shoot one shot at a time real slow.

[ASH556]

There was nobody on the podcast named Paul.

You're right, my mistake. It was Rob Haught. My brain interchanges Hauhgt and Howe, as in Paul Howe. That's how I got there. Totally my mistake.

That is absolutely not what Steve Fisher said. You seem to be injecting arguments into people's statements that those people were not making.

I spoke about using a timer in classes after Adam brought it up and stated that in most shotgun classes you absolutely don't see them because there aren't many people out there who are good enough at teaching shotgun to get people to the point where they can begin to hold them to some time standards. Most shotgun training professionals are subjected to is, as discussed at length on the podcast, familiarization fire at best. It's not meaningful training.

Yes, I recall you making that point. Unless I'm getting it wrong, though, Steve said he used to time slug changeovers, but has since stopped because he found it was better to just have folks do reps than time them.

You shouldn't waste your money on a shotgun class.

Clearly nobody on that podcast has anything to teach you. Especially not "Paul" Everybody on there is just not batting in your league.

You clearly have a comprehensive command of the gun and how to use it, so you shouldn't waste your time training with tacti-fuds who don't teach people how to do anything but stand there and shoot one shot at a time real slow.

Tim, I'm not trying to get on you or anyone else's bad side here, I promise. This isn't about me saying how awesome I am or anything. I've said in almost every post that there are better folks than me and I'm just looking to improve. I started this thread by naming several folks, you included, that I consider experts on the shotgun and looking for direction for improvement.

From what I heard in the podcast, most of what you and the others see in class are beginner shooters who just struggle to manage recoil, feed the gun, and run the gun. OK, got it. That's the same thing we see in beginner pistol classes too. But at some point we have more advanced pistol classes for guys who know how to do that stuff and we begin to push them and teach them how to push themselves for faster draws, faster transitions, sight tracking under recoil, faster reloads, and all the other skills.

I'm just looking for guidance and direction and mentioning my experience in competition as anecdotal evidence in pushing what can be done.

With all due respect,
Josh