Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 20

Thread: New shooter here...please teach, I am ready to learn

  1. #1

    New shooter here...please teach, I am ready to learn

    Hey all,

    I'm a new pistol shooter here. I grew up in a country where 99% of the people are indoctrinated into thinking that guns are bad and only the government should have a monopoly on them. So I am presently a tourist in a slightly freer country and am enjoying the ability to go to the range and do some shooting . I envy the US RKBA (don't y'all ever lose it!)

    At the range I am shooting at, I am not allowed to do any draw-and-shoot. Just steady, aimed, pistol shooting at the range's maximum distance (15m). And each 9mm round is 0.75$ which is pretty expensive for an Eastern European country. The range instructor is a grizzled grouchy Russian who only speaks Russian so it is hard to understand what he is saying. I've uploaded the last 35 shots I did at the range after buying 100 rounds of 9mm ammo. My first 20 or so were wide off the mark until he noticed I was flinching while I pulled the trigger. I consciously tried to stop flinching (remembering a Youtube video instructor who said "You almost need to be surprised when you pull the trigger and the gun fires, so that you don't flinch") and the results were much better. In those pictures I was shooting 18 or 17 rounds respectively from a Glock 18 at 15m.

    Q1: Is there any value doing marksmanship shooting with a pistol? Where you take a few seconds between shots, control your breathing, aim and movement, etc.? I can only imagine that in a scenario where I need to use a pistol defensively (if I do end up living in a freer country), a few seconds to aim and shoot (plus a few more seconds to recognise a life-threatening scenario and draw your gun) would be too slow. In other scenarios where you take so long, it won't be defensive anymore (e.g. robber is already running away) and therefore usage of lethal force is not justified.

    Q2: Some people I've spoken to who were professional pistol wielders (few weeks training with just pistols) said that your basic stance should be with your main (trigger) arm completely straight with the elbows locked and your off-hand supporting the other hand. I personally found it more comfortable to shoot symmetrical with the gun in my mid-line, with my non-dominant eye closed and with both arms relaxed and elbows bent. Is this bad technique?

    Q3: There are quite a few impressive Youtube videos of pistol marksmen hitting targets even hundreds of meters away. I'd love to reach that level of skill but I presume that 99% of the time when you need a gun, when you have a pistol and when you use the pistol, they would be at distances under 7m (I believe I read a statistic that most pistol encounters are over in under 7s, under 7 yards and with less than 7 bullets fired). Therefore given my limited ability and expensive endeavor to go to a range in another country to shoot, is my 15m range I am training at adequate?

    Q4: Do pros still always line up their sights against their target or do you reach a point where you become so skilled you can shoot reflexively and hit targets?

    Thanks for any tips and pointers you have. I would also appreciate recommendations of good Youtube video tutorials on pistol shooting.
    Attached Images Attached Images   

  2. #2
    Member That Guy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    overseas
    Welcome!

    Do you have the ability to travel to different ranges, or are you stuck with the one you described? The ammunition price sounds a bit high - if you can't afford to shoot live fire all that much, you ought to try to figure out a way to dry practice between range sessions. (You don't necessarily need a real gun for dry practice, but for you something that has a fairly realistic trigger pull would be beneficial.) Is shooting with a .22 a possibility for basic marksmanship work at your range? That might help with the ammo costs, as well as be an easier gun to start with.

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Bloggs View Post
    Q1: Is there any value doing marksmanship shooting with a pistol?
    Hell yes. If you can't hit your target without any time constraints or other pressure, what makes you think you will do better when the shooting task becomes more difficult?

    (Besides, regardless of what your end goals are, any type of shooting is better for your skill development than no shooting at all.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Bloggs View Post
    Q2: Some people I've spoken to who were professional pistol wielders (few weeks training with just pistols) said that your basic stance should be with your main (trigger) arm completely straight with the elbows locked and your off-hand supporting the other hand. I personally found it more comfortable to shoot symmetrical with the gun in my mid-line, with my non-dominant eye closed and with both arms relaxed and elbows bent. Is this bad technique?
    Photos would be beneficial, but to me your technique sounds fairly valid. If you can shoot with both eyes open, that would be better - but if you can't, you can't. The professional pistol wielders were probably taught the only right way to shoot according to their organization, and they fail to realize the real world is not quite so black and white.

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Bloggs View Post
    Therefore given my limited ability and expensive endeavor to go to a range in another country to shoot, is my 15m range I am training at adequate?
    Quite adequate. As you are a novice shooter, I really wouldn't worry too much about extreme ranges. Just strive towards landing all your shots onto an A4 piece of paper, or a post card, or a post-it note - you'll be busy enough with just those for a bit.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by That Guy View Post
    Welcome!

    Do you have the ability to travel to different ranges, or are you stuck with the one you described? The ammunition price sounds a bit high - if you can't afford to shoot live fire all that much, you ought to try to figure out a way to dry practice between range sessions. (You don't necessarily need a real gun for dry practice, but for you something that has a fairly realistic trigger pull would be beneficial.) Is shooting with a .22 a possibility for basic marksmanship work at your range? That might help with the ammo costs, as well as be an easier gun to start with.
    Hello, thanks for your reply and tips

    Yes I do have the ability to travel to other ranges to try them out but language is a problem here. I am in the FSU as a tourist (which means they think you are a cash cow looking to be milked). My next shooting vacation next year may be to a more chaotic place like Angola Journey would be longer but hopefully bullets will be cheaper and there will be more flexibility on what I can do.

    Nevertheless the locals have recommended a few other ranges to me to try out.

    I will also try to specifically ask them if they have .22 ammo to try.

    Also, the Russian guy at the range said (through Google Translate) that it damages the pistol to dry fire it. Is that true? In between him reloading the magazines, I was trying to dry fire on a Sig P220 (which has a hammer you can re-cock each time). I couldn't dry fire on a Glock (no hammer). I believe they also have a HK USP, Beretta 92 and a CZ 75 to choose from.

    Hell yes. If you can't hit your target without any time constraints or other pressure, what makes you think you will do better when the shooting task becomes more difficult?

    (Besides, regardless of what your end goals are, any type of shooting is better for your skill development than no shooting at all.)
    OK, so I'll persevere at the ranges I find, despite not being able to try what I'd like to do.


    Photos would be beneficial, but to me your technique sounds fairly valid. If you can shoot with both eyes open, that would be better - but if you can't, you can't. The professional pistol wielders were probably taught the only right way to shoot according to their organization, and they fail to realize the real world is not quite so black and white.
    One of the security guards said the reason your trigger hand is straight and your elbow locked is so that the recoil goes into your shoulders and doesn't mess up re-acquiring the target as much.

    I will try to put up pictures of my technique. Are just pictures/videos with hands on the gun OK or do you need the body stance as well? It is very taboo to do pistol shooting and have an interest as a civilian in guns in my country and I don't want to advertise I am actively seeking out this skill. People's first questions are "Why do you want a gun?" "Why do you need a gun?" etc. People have so quickly forgotten that historically it is armed repressive governments (sometimes even "enlightened" democracies turned bad), picking on unarmed civilians, that have murdered more than armed civilians on each other.


    Quite adequate. As you are a novice shooter, I really wouldn't worry too much about extreme ranges. Just strive towards landing all your shots onto an A4 piece of paper, or a post card, or a post-it note - you'll be busy enough with just those for a bit.
    Will do

  4. #4
    Member That Guy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    overseas
    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Bloggs View Post
    Nevertheless the locals have recommended a few other ranges to me to try out.
    Then it sounds to me like it might very well be worth your time to try them. You might find a bit more professionally run range.

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Bloggs View Post
    Also, the Russian guy at the range said (through Google Translate) that it damages the pistol to dry fire it. Is that true?
    Extensive dry fire over a prolonged period of time, if done without a snap cap, may cause damage. Eventually. Perhaps. So, use a snap cap to prevent any possible issues and carry on.

    Although my suggestion was for you to find, if possible, a dry practice tool that would enable you to practice on your own outside a range. I'm not sure of your local laws though, some places have silly restrictions about these things. Americans have all these neat gadgets like SIRT pistols available to them, but the rest of us may have to become more creative in trying to figure out locally available solutions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Bloggs View Post
    One of the security guards said the reason your trigger hand is straight and your elbow locked is so that the recoil goes into your shoulders and doesn't mess up re-acquiring the target as much.

    I will try to put up pictures of my technique. Are just pictures/videos with hands on the gun OK or do you need the body stance as well? It is very taboo to do pistol shooting and have an interest as a civilian in guns in my country and I don't want to advertise I am actively seeking out this skill.
    Yeaaah... I'm getting the feeling those security guards aren't getting the best training on the planet.

    Photos of your stance would be best, but since security and anonymity are such high priorities to you, don't worry about it. There are plenty of good sources out there that explain stance, grip, and all the rest of it. Just realize that there are more than one single way of doing things, not every skilled shooter will agree 100% on every nuance of technique.

    One good place to start from might be Kyle Lamb's book Stay in the Fight!! Warriors Guide to the Combat Pistol. Just checked, looks to be available from amazon.de for 52,46EUR Or, I'm sure others here might think of other sources.

  5. #5
    Q1: Is there any value doing marksmanship shooting with a pistol?

    **Yes. You don't know what defensive situation might present itself. You might get into a shooting sport that emphasizes marksmanship over speed.

    Q2: basic stance

    **The current recommendation here is with both arms straight toward the target. This transmits recoil back to the shoulders and the whole body. In military and police use, it presents the face of a bullet proof vest to the opponent, not opening up the armpits for a deadly hit. The dominant hand should grip the pistol firmly, the support hand should be in a wrap around grip over the gun hand, not under the gun butt. The support hand should cover the gun hand hard, with more pressure than the actual grip on the gun, but must not interfere with the trigger finger.
    Bent elbows and asymmetric stances are out of fashion. I must say that I use the Chapman position with left elbow bent and left shoulder slightly toward the target. But I learned it 40 years ago and don't plan to change.

    Q3: is my 15m range I am training at adequate?

    **Yes, for many purposes. If you find the target is getting easy to hit, hang a smaller target. The15m targets you show are quite good for the first (or 21st) attempt.

    Q4: Do pros still always line up their sights against their target or do you reach a point where you become so skilled you can shoot reflexively and hit targets?

    **Yes and yes. If I am shooting at a man sized target at close range, I am indexing the gun just looking down the barrel or slide. If at VERY close range, I am just pointing the gun. But if the target is small or distant, you have to have the sights.


    Dry firing does not damage a modern centerfire pistol. How can it do more than actually firing the gun?
    Top shooters do a lot of dry firing to refine and maintain their skill. It is free and can be done anywhere once you have made absolutely positively sure that there is no ammunition in the gun or even in the room.
    A snap cap will protect the firing pin and its spring if you are doing daily dryfire.

    You CAN dryfire a Glock, just retract the slide slightly, perhaps 5mm, to reset the striker and it will click. No worse than cocking a hammer.
    Code Name: JET STREAM

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by That Guy View Post
    Then it sounds to me like it might very well be worth your time to try them. You might find a bit more professionally run range.
    I'm glad I tried another range today The bullets are a bit cheaper ($0.35 per .22, $0.50 per 9mm). Bad news is that I exhausted their supply of .22 rounds today. I spent the rest of the time firing 9mms. They won't be able to restock their .22s until after I leave the country. The instructor at the range was a bit more patient and willing to give pointers on stance, grip, etc. so I will keep going back.


    Extensive dry fire over a prolonged period of time, if done without a snap cap, may cause damage. Eventually. Perhaps. So, use a snap cap to prevent any possible issues and carry on.

    Although my suggestion was for you to find, if possible, a dry practice tool that would enable you to practice on your own outside a range. I'm not sure of your local laws though, some places have silly restrictions about these things. Americans have all these neat gadgets like SIRT pistols available to them, but the rest of us may have to become more creative in trying to figure out locally available solutions.
    I really don't understand the mentality of governments that so curtail the liberties of their people "for our protection" (the cynic in me would say it is to prevent a revolution in the event they become oppressive regimes), and I also don't understand the mentality of other people who ask for their liberties to be taken away....

    I am sure there are a lot of reasons but I think one of the reasons the Americans are the premier fighters in the world is because of the amount of exposure they can get at a young age to weapons. Everything else being equal, an American kid who gets exposed to carefully supervised gun training starting at say 6 years old is going to be better than any other citizen getting exposed to guns when they reach say 18 years old (youngest age of military service for many countries).

    Yeaaah... I'm getting the feeling those security guards aren't getting the best training on the planet.
    Well, sometimes these security schools want a standardised training system to churn out people with a set way of doing things. If you look at Youtube videos of Jerry Miculek shooting, his stance seems to be fairly relaxed without locked joints and stiff posture.

    Photos of your stance would be best, but since security and anonymity are such high priorities to you, don't worry about it. There are plenty of good sources out there that explain stance, grip, and all the rest of it. Just realize that there are more than one single way of doing things, not every skilled shooter will agree 100% on every nuance of technique.
    Out of the 200 rounds I fired today, I tried something different for 10...I fired them at a target 5m away just by pointing with both eyes open (not aiming). The results were surprisingly good. Firstly, with both eyes open you can see where the bullet hits on the paper the moment it hits, which gives feedback while I am shooting, where I am hitting.

    One good place to start from might be Kyle Lamb's book Stay in the Fight!! Warriors Guide to the Combat Pistol. Just checked, looks to be available from amazon.de for 52,46EUR Or, I'm sure others here might think of other sources.
    Thanks for the book suggestion. I am currently reading "Tactical Pistol Marksmanship" by Gabriel Suarez. It is available in e-book form.

  7. #7
    Member JHC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    North Georgia
    Can a SIRT be delivered to wherever you are? I have seen very tangible benefits in a shooter that put dedicated daily work into one for an extended time period when they could not live fire or dry fire a real pistol.

    https://nextleveltraining.com/
    “Remember, being healthy is basically just dying as slowly as possible,” Ricky Gervais

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by JHC View Post
    Can a SIRT be delivered to wherever you are? I have seen very tangible benefits in a shooter that put dedicated daily work into one for an extended time period when they could not live fire or dry fire a real pistol.

    https://nextleveltraining.com/
    Based on a true story. A friend of a friend ordered a book from Paladin Press and it triggered red flags and got his house raided by the cops.

    The SIRT training pistol looks good. I won't order it for reasons above but can probably build one myself with a laser pointer and a 3D printer.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1cRBRrbZXVA

    Is it legal or not in my country? This I will need to check. It may need to be fundamentally unable of firing a projectile and to be slightly incompatible to a real gun to be legally classified as a toy rather than a firearm or firearm component.

    P.S. I am currently looking at a video documentary about the tragedy of child soldiers. I do not mean to come across as a proponent of exposing children to violence but rather intended to point out the competitive benefits of exposing people to skills early which they later take on professionally.

  9. #9
    Joe,

    You mentioned vacationing in another country next year. Would you be able to train at Gunsite or Rangemaster? If a visit to the US is possible, you might email Gunsite or Rangemaster (or a formal school of your choice) and discuss the possibility of instruction.

    If visiting is not convenient, "Uncle" Scotty Reitz, who subscribes to the Modern Technique developed by Jeff Cooper, has published a splendid book on the fundamentals of pistol shooting.

    https://clients.mindbodyonline.com/P...nerID=0&catid=
    Last edited by Duces Tecum; 02-26-2019 at 04:08 PM.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Bloggs View Post
    I'm glad I tried another range today The bullets are a bit cheaper ($0.35 per .22, $0.50 per 9mm). Bad news is that I exhausted their supply of .22 rounds today. .
    I am glad you are persistent, Joe.
    But that is just a sad commentary on the state of the shooting sports Over There, that one customer could clean out a popular caliber.
    Code Name: JET STREAM

User Tag List

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •