New FBI Pistol Qual

[Gio]

That's true, but they can be an indicator. A more vigorous qualfication test often reflects higher expectations and standards through the intiial and continuing ed pipelines. A cop that can fire 4, reload, fire 4 in 8 seconds at the 7 yd (even on the QIT) is the Top Gun in an awful lot of areas.

Just as lesser tests often reflect lower standards. Recent discussion of various east-coast standards at 15yds is a good example. A transplant from the NE I had to work with had never seen a shot timer, turning target, or the 25yd line before.

I disagree and think these courses do very little to measure or differentiate skill. There is no difference in passing it with a 100% and shooting 4 reload 4 in 8 seconds with your rounds spread all over the target to passing with a 100% and shooting 4 reload 4 in 4 seconds with your rounds through the center of the box. These courses continue to get dumbed down as well: this is the easiest qual course the FBI has had in its history. While it may be slightly more challenging than a lot of state requirements like the Georgia POST course, it's still far from a decent metric of skill.

Most of the standards drills coined/invented by private instructors or competitive classifier type courses like the IDPA classifier, 5x5 classifier, or USPSA classifiers measured to a known standard classification rank are a much better indicator of overall skill (or deficiency of skill) than courses like this one.

EDIT: I get it's fun to shoot these and see how you stack up on big name agency qual courses, but from an objective measure of skill standpoint, I think they are pretty worthless and LE agencies are much better served wasting the bare minimum number of rounds needed to qualify and then focusing on better drills and skill building exercises for improvement.

[revchuck38]

I tried this today with my PX4 from concealment. It did not go swimmingly. I found a huge, gaping hole in my abilities.

All the way through the 15 yard line I was doing okay, though not wonderfully. I used a current IDPA practice target with the goal of keeping everything inside the -0. I managed to throw a shot into the -1 from the 3 (first shot after the transition), 7 (probably the first shot after the reload) and the 15, plus went overtime by .26 seconds on the first string at the 7. Since the first two dropped shots were probably caused by rushing, I wanted to make sure I used all of the time allotted, and was a bit too careful.

It's been a while since I shot at 25 yards, and that came back to bite me. The first four standing felt okay, then I went to kneeling and wasn't as steady. I ended up with six in the -1 and one in the -3, all low. I was pretty miffed.

Here's the target:


And here are the times:


I ended up with time left over on most of the strings. Especially the 25 yard one.

I'm going to find the thread on 25 yard shooting and start reading.

[CCT125US]

@Gio would you be more in favor of a hit factor type scoring system, a pass / fail qual, tougher standards in general? Balancing the ideal with the time and budgetary constraints aside...

[ASH556]

I'm going to find the thread on 25 yard shooting and start reading.

I'll save you the trouble: Grip, sights, trigger, lol.

For real though, what's spun me up as I re-calibrated over the last 2-3 months was shooting 1 hole groups at 7yds. That takes the vision aspect out of the equation, that sometimes makes 25yds hard. Once you can do 10 in one hole at 7, the 25yd stuff becomes much easier.

[JSGlock34]

A more vigorous qualification test often reflects higher expectations and standards through the initial and continuing ed pipelines. A cop that can fire 4, reload, fire 4 in 8 seconds at the 7 yd (even on the QIT) is the Top Gun in an awful lot of areas.

I don't disagree that the FBI qualification has higher standards than many other LE agencies, but how is this version more vigorous than what it replaced? You mention the fire 4, reload, fire 4 in 8 seconds standards at 7 yards...the qualification test this one replaces had the same stage - except starting from the draw instead of the ready...

The one handed stage seems a bit more sporty (six seconds as opposed to eight), but the rest appears to be easier, with many more ready position starts.

[revchuck38]

I'll save you the trouble: Grip, sights, trigger, lol.

For real though, what's spun me up as I re-calibrated over the last 2-3 months was shooting 1 hole groups at 7yds. That takes the vision aspect out of the equation, that sometimes makes 25yds hard. Once you can do 10 in one hole at 7, the 25yd stuff becomes much easier.

Thanks, I might try that. My vision has definitely gone downhill as I've aged. My dominant right eye had its retina detach a couple of years ago, and after the surgery, I ended up with a lot more and bigger floaters which affect my sight picture.

[Gio]

@Gio would you be more in favor of a hit factor type scoring system, a pass / fail qual, tougher standards in general? Balancing the ideal with the time and budgetary constraints aside...

This is a tough problem to solve, bc there are significant time and budget constraints, especially with a large department or agency. The problem is you can’t do hit factor or time plus scoring with a line of people shooting at the same time. I would like to see more objective scoring rings (I.e an A/C/D or -0/-1/-3 zone) and incorporate that into the scoring such as requiring at least 50% of the shots in the -0 otherwise it’s a fail even if all rounds are in the silhouette.

I think the overall shooting standards have decreased over time as well in LE with the administrative push to get a higher percentage of people to pass qualifications. This doesn’t make for better gun fighters though, in fact it has the opposite effect. This is just one example of a qual standard that went from semi-challenging to easy to you-almost-don’t-need-training to pass.

Edit to fix autocorrects

[HCM]

@Gio would you be more in favor of a hit factor type scoring system, a pass / fail qual, tougher standards in general? Balancing the ideal with the time and budgetary constraints aside...

As Gio said administrative burden of individual times for hit factor scoring would be impractical for large scale LE training with groups / lines of shooters.

The biggest cost in LE firearms training is not ammo, guns or range time, it’s man hours.

An LEO who is unable to qualify has to come back to the range for at least half a day. That is actually 1.5 man days or 12 hours because you should have at least two instructors for remedial qualifications ( as a witnesss) in addition to the remedial shooter. For GS 13 LEOs with 25% LEAP, AVP etc their effective rate is about $56 per hour. 12 man hours for a half day remedial is $672.

My Agency qual has objective scoring rings (5/4/2) and two mandatory head shots which trigger a penalty if not in the head but ultimately it’s the same 80% to pass.

[revchuck38]

I was pretty upset with myself for my poor shooting when I tried this a few days ago. I decided to try it again, with my carry PX4 rather than the training one and some Magtech 115-grain hardball rather than my handloads. I even dug out my old Ruger MKII bull barrel and some CCI standard velocity ammo to check that yes, I can hit a damned B8 at 25 yards. I had begun to doubt that.

This time worked out better:


These were the times:


I dropped either three or four rounds out of the -0, the one at 7 o'clock is barely touching the line but I'm taking it. I'm guessing that the shots outside the -0 would still be on the QIT bottle. Even if they weren't, I'd still have 47/50 - 94%. That's passing for an instructor...and I kinda suck. WTF?

I enjoyed shooting this, and I'm glad the first try showed a big hole that I need to fix.

[ASH556]

I shot this again on what I "think" is the right target: QIT97. I blazed a bunch of the times and was having fun until I got a little too careless at 15 and threw one high left, so I guess it's 98/100. Oh well.