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Thread: Illinois perp legally purchased firearm

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    Illinois perp legally purchased firearm

    I just watch a Aurora news conference in which the Chief broke down how the Pratt Co. shooting suspect obtained a firearm. First my background, I'm a 29 year veteran police officer currently assigned to firearms licensing. I'm trying to wrap my head around how this happened. In Aurora the POS had prior arrest for DV and restraining violation, property damage and disorderly conduct. I'm assuming the dv cases were dismissed or NG so they weren't held against him on a background check on the FOID card and there must not be a suitability clause in Ill for firearms licensing. He applied for an got a FOID card and then a permit to purchase. He then purchased a S&W M&P 40cal.

    Here is my questions, is there no NICS check in Illinois when you have a FOID card and permit to purchase? He later applied for a concealed carry permit and was denied when his finger prints came back with a felony conviction in 1995 in Mississippi. If the fingerprints came back with the Mississippi conviction then he would have been in the NICS data base and flagged on the NICS check. I can see how someone would not be flagged on a local background check with an out of state conviction as you would have to check the IQ data base of the individual state to determine any criminal record but the Mississippi conviction was fingerprint recorded and in the FBI data base so he shouldn't have made it through a NICS check. Any Illinois LE that can shed light on this process?

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    Gucci gear, Walmart skill Darth_Uno's Avatar
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    Idk how LE shares info, but with a FOID you still need a 4473 and background check. Which is why FOID is a completely useless step.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Sammy1 View Post
    I just watch a Aurora news conference in which the Chief broke down how the Pratt Co. shooting suspect obtained a firearm. First my background, I'm a 29 year veteran police officer currently assigned to firearms licensing. I'm trying to wrap my head around how this happened. In Aurora the POS had prior arrest for DV and restraining violation, property damage and disorderly conduct. I'm assuming the dv cases were dismissed or NG so they weren't held against him on a background check on the FOID card and there must not be a suitability clause in Ill for firearms licensing. He applied for an got a FOID card and then a permit to purchase. He then purchased a S&W M&P 40cal.

    Here is my questions, is there no NICS check in Illinois when you have a FOID card and permit to purchase? He later applied for a concealed carry permit and was denied when his finger prints came back with a felony conviction in 1995 in Mississippi. If the fingerprints came back with the Mississippi conviction then he would have been in the NICS data base and flagged on the NICS check. I can see how someone would not be flagged on a local background check with an out of state conviction as you would have to check the IQ data base of the individual state to determine any criminal record but the Mississippi conviction was fingerprint recorded and in the FBI data base so he shouldn't have made it through a NICS check. Any Illinois LE that can shed light on this process?
    I don’t know if it is still the case but a decade or so ago, Mississippi was one of two states which did not participate in NCIC. If that is still the case a MS conviction might not comeback on a name and DOB check vs a fingerprint search. Any indication the MS felony was under an alias ?

    As we saw with the Sutherland springs shooters court martial, if a felony is not in the system (NICS is based on NCIC) it will not come up on a check.
    Last edited by HCM; 02-16-2019 at 03:47 PM.

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    Revolvers Revolvers 1911s Stephanie B's Avatar
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    If he had a felony conviction, then he did not purchase the gun legally. He had to have lied on the 4473.
    If we have to march off into the next world, let us walk there on the bodies of our enemies.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sammy1 View Post
    I'm a 29 year veteran police officer currently assigned to firearms licensing
    Let me guess: Massachusetts...........

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    Site Supporter Rex G's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stephanie B View Post
    If he had a felony conviction, then he did not purchase the gun legally. He had to have lied on the 4473.
    This.

    For the OP: As for a prior conviction not showing during a NICS or FOID check, well, we all should know how accurate and complete all arrest/conviction records really are.
    Last edited by Rex G; 02-21-2019 at 02:30 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rex G View Post
    This.

    For the OP: As for a prior conviction not showing during a NICS or FOID check, well, we all should know how accurate and complete all arrest/conviction records really are.
    Wonder if a spelling error or DOB, maybe the system was down. I'd like to see what happened.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom_Jones View Post
    As a reminder, this thread is in the LE sub-forum and this sub-forum has a "mission statement":



    If anyone finds themselves wanting to say something that doesn't fit within that mission statement, it's probably best not to post it.
    Okay I'm not trying to be a prick I'm asking this question because I really don't understand. My question is how does the OP itself as written conform to the mission statement it's not about LE equipment or training. It's about a failure in the NCIS system. If I missing something I'm willing to be educated but maybe this isn't the right forum for this discussion period
    Last edited by Cypher; 02-22-2019 at 02:48 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cypher View Post
    ... but maybe this isn't the right forum for this discussion period
    Agreed. Moved to General Discussion.

    Carry on.
    Sorta around sometimes for some of your shitty mod needs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cypher View Post
    Okay I'm not trying to be a prick I'm asking this question because I really don't understand. My question is how does the OP itself as written conform to the mission statement it's not about LE equipment or training. It's about a failure in the NCIS system. If I missing something I'm willing to be educated but maybe this isn't the right forum for this discussion period
    I know this thread has already been moved but NICS is based on NCIC - both of which are LE equipment used much more often than anything normally of interest to PF.

    While NCIC is good, it has flaws. At least until a few years ago, not every state participated in NCIC. My understanding was Mississippi was the last hold out joining around 2000. So I can see where a pre 2000 conviction in MS might not come up in NICS on a name and DOB check due to variations in name, dob etc.

    In my experience criminal history info is like a wedding cake with the most detail at the local level, less at the state level and the least at the federal level.

    Also all criminal history information in NCIC is based on / supported by fingerprint identification. Charges are matched up with an individuals record based on fingerprint matching regardless of the identity claimed at time of arrest In the modern era of live scan fingerprinting the quality of data has improved but historically, if no fingerprint card was mailed into the state and/or the FBI there would be no record of a particular arrest or court disposition.

    In some states, like CA, a check of the state system will generate a duplicate of the info in NCIC then a second section with a caveat that the information in the second section is based on “soft criteria such as name and date of birth.” This section often contains additional misdemeanor arrests and dispositions for cases which only show as arrests in NCIC.

    Another example of garbage in garbage out is place of birth information. Most jail intake / PD arrest systems default POB to the local state since most arrestees are locals. So a PD/ jail in CA wiill default to CA, TX to TX etc. I have seen many foreign nationals listed in NCIC as born in TX, CA. etc because that was the default setting when they were fingerprinted during their first arrest. Even when they try to enter correct information things happen. I have seen several Indian nationals whose NCIC rap sheet shows them as born in Indiana because someone entered “IN” for “India” and NCIC read it as “Indiana.”
    Last edited by HCM; 02-23-2019 at 10:52 AM.

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