I Hate Gunsmiths

[Clusterfrack]

This thread is for ranting about disappointing experiences with gunsmiths. Please don't identify anyone by name.

Ok. Here goes:

I have never had one single good experience with a gunsmith. I keep hearing about great gunsmiths, and then when I use them it's always disappointing.

All I ask is: quote me the actual price of the work, let me know the actual date my gun will ship back to me, and be honest about any reliability or safety issues you have had when doing this kind of work. Please treat my gun as if it were your own. Have some pride in the quality of the work you do for me. I'm happy to pay for all this.

What I am not happy to pay for:

-Shoddy work
-Excuses
-Late delivery (or no delivery until I threaten legal action)
-Missing parts
-A gun that is less reliable after you worked on it

Why do gunsmiths not know how to run a business?
Why is it always Bambi or Barbie who answers the phone and can't provide any useful information?
Why do you bother advertising, and then cannot complete work in a reasonable time period?
Why do you not return my emails or voicemail?
Why do you make promises you can't keep?

I am glad that factory rifles and pistols are becoming so good that I can avoid using gunsmiths.

[GardoneVT]

It’s a relevant point to note that in some locales it’s easier to order illegal narcotics then legal gunsmithing.

[Darth_Uno]

When I was heavy into 1911's I've had plenty of good experiences, and it helps to go into it knowing that the turnaround time might be longer than what they say.

That said:

I had one guy that strung it out foreeeever. I wasn't too concerned, but what I was having done didn't require any extremely rare parts or labor. All the reasons were business-related and seemingly legitimate (none of the "my dad's been in the hospital" schtick), it just took way too long. If you tell me six months, that's fine. If you tell me a year, that's fine. If you tell me six months and then it takes a year, I don't like that.

On the incredibly slim chance that he reads this, hunts through my posts and deduces who I am, it was not Severns Customs. I highly recommend him.

[RevolverRob]

My take:

There is a reason why some gunsmiths have backlogs that are months to years in length. And interestingly, there is reason why those folks only work on one or two models/'platforms'. I'm wary of "jacks of all trades", because the other half of that phrase is "master of none". I want someone who is virtually obsessive about the work they do and they work on one model, because with each iteration they are perfecting their technique, refining their inputs and outputs, and studying to the point of zealotry the ins and outs of what is being worked on. Guns are machines of relatively tight tolerances and monkeying heavily with the mechanics is not for the uninitiated. Unfortunately, too many guys think they know it all, or enough, to figure it out without actually learning enough.

We must remember too, that be definition, "smithing" implies significant, advanced, training in the field that comes before the "smith". A watchsmith, a gunsmith, a blacksmith, a bladesmith - these were historically apprentice -> journeyman -> master guilds. With each step having the requisite training, experience, and testing required. Lots of guys hang out a shingle and call themselves a "smith" without understanding what that term really means when they are no more qualified to do anything than change parts.

In this realm, when selecting gunsmiths, I prefer, strongly, to choose those who have been granted membership into the American Pistolsmith Guild and/or the American Custom Gunmakers Guild. Both require prospective members to submit pieces of work for inspection and approval by members and certified inspectors who specialize in certain sub-fields. For example, if you wanted to join APG as a single-action revolver-oriented smith, your work could be judged by Jim Stroh and/or Hamliton Bowen. - Unfortunately, members of APG and ACGG are usually those with those extensive backlogs and high prices.

[rcbusmc24]

I have found that there are many " armorers" but very few "gunsmiths" anymore.

I have all my work that requires fitting or cutting done down here by a retired PWS smith whose current day job is as a lead smith in MARSOCs armory on Stone Bay. Hasnt let me down yet.

[ASH556]

Agreed, but "armorers" should be judged even more harshly than "gunsmiths". I know of an M&P "armorer" who's cracked 3 Shield slides trying to install sights. I've been in classes with "armorers" who felt it necessary to wail on AR FCG pins with a hammer like they were a house framer. ALWAYS try to vet someone's work.

Then again, I've had people vet me too. Some were honest and worthwhile and others were ridiculous. The one that sticks out in my mind the most was a guy who came into the shop one evening. He asked to see the "AR Expert" as he put it. I suppose I looked too young to him or something, so he outright told me,

"I've got a serious need, but I need to test you first to see if you'll be able to help me. What size should the gas port be on an 18" rifle-gassed AR barrel?"

I was a bit taken aback, but figured if he was gonna dish it then I'd dish it right back, so I answered,

"Well, mil-spec for a 20" rifle gas is .093, and moving the end of the barrel closer to the gas port is going to decrease dwell time, so start at .100 and see how it runs."

He replied with,

"Hot damn, I guess you really do know your shit."

and then proceeded to ask my opinion on flip up rear sights or some other bullshit. Whatever.

[theJanitor]

In this realm, when selecting gunsmiths, I prefer, strongly, to choose those who have been granted membership into the American Pistolsmith Guild and/or the American Custom Gunmakers Guild. Both require prospective members to submit pieces of work for inspection and approval by members and certified inspectors who specialize in certain sub-fields.

The APG has also removed members for poor business practices, IIRC

IMO, the best was to have a great experience with a gunsmith, is to do alot of legwork before commissioning a piece. And have real, thoughtful conversations with him/her about your expectations. I only have ONE 1911 smith that I wouldn't go back to, or refer. He did several excellent jobs for me in the past, but the last pistol just didn't perform, and he wouldn't own up to it

[YVK]

There are two great gunsmiths who are the members of this site, Chuck Rogers/pistolwrench and Ned Christiansen. I consider Ned a friend. I've had various works done by them, from smaller machining projects to bigger ones to full sized guns. The full sized project was a very long deal but, beyond that, I've never had anything to complain about. I also have always appreciated them taking the time away from building multi-$$$ 1911s and addressing much less lucrative projects that I was in need of.
I really hope that neither of these two one-of-the-kind gunsmiths get offended by this thread's title.

[Artemas2]

One gun smith milled a slide for me, and while the overall work quality is good it did leave some things to be desired.

Surprise return shipping. Not a big deal, but given the cost of the work I had assumed delivery was included. It was not and I was told I needed to give them $50 for return shipping while they had my slide hostage. It cost me $10 to ship it to them.

The work itself was good except for the ejector channel was drilled into and was not cleaned. The remaining burrs make it impossible to install/remove my ejector spring and plunger normally. I now have to completely strip the slide and pull the parts out the front which is not hard, but it did add steps where they should not be needed.

Had a different guy install Wilson sights on my (now former) duty 870. The holes are off center. With the sight fully adjusted to one side I still can't zero it.

[Clusterfrack]

I really hope that neither of these two one-of-the-kind gunsmiths get offended by this thread's title.

That’s great to hear. I wish there were many more like them.

But, I’m not the type to worry about offending people unintentionally.