I Hate Gunsmiths

[willie]

Perhaps part of the problem is that growth of shooting sports has brought about more people trying to cash in on this interest. I equate expert gunsmith with being an expert machinist. Attaining skill in both areas requires hard work and study. Many may not realize that when he or she sends a gun off for expert attention, there is no guarantee that the expert will be doing the work. He may have hired others to work in his shop and perform these tasks. Further, I suspect that some shops farm out much if not all repair and custom work requests. And then there are other factors like burnout, family problems, financial problems, and physical and mental health issues to include addiction. Procrastination is another monster. My gunsmith is skilled yet he has made errors over the last 30 years that concerned me. To his credit, he fixed them. I learned the hard way to write specs to describe and delineate exactly what I wanted done. Perhaps the most important lesson for me was learning not to fix things that are not broke. A Remington 870 or Mossberg 500 is not a high grade shotgun. Neither is in the class of a Purdy double or high grade Beretta. I use hyperbole here to make a point. A Ruger BLK is what it is. If the revolver shoots where it looks and groups well, then leave it alone. Shooting the damn thing will resolve heavy trigger pull and imaginary action concerns. Yes, I have been screwed too but won't bore you. I do have one holster story. I decided to order three custom made holsters and a gun belt from a very famous outfit in Texas. The place cashed my check and after months of calling them, I received the product. One was completely unfinished and lacking stitching and hardware; another was for a gun not owned by me, and a third was shoddily done. The belt had holes unevenly punched. I threw one in the trash and gave away two. The belt went to Goodwill. I accepted the loss. I wished not to be bothered.

[RevolverRob]

I think OP’s tastes run to non-such and gamer guns, and I think maybe that draws a different breed.

I mean yes @Clusterfrack has made it clear, he runs CZs a lot. Which I guess brings us to one problem -

Since basically a gunsmithed pistol means revolver or 1911, what is someone who doesn’t run those do?

I think in this realm he’s right from the perspective of it’s a good thing, for instance, that CZ has started doing it’s own custom work and that Sig and Beretta are offering well-tuned handguns from the factory. Otherwise, you’d basically be fucked entirely.

Probably the biggest issue, to me, though is the plethora of sight dovetails and installations

I admit that this is one reason why I run a lot of Novak’s sights, for installation purposes, the guns (or just slides) go to Novak and while there are several Novak dovetails they are fairly universal. Meaning it’s possible to put Novak sights on most guns.

[OlongJohnson]

Bitching about gunsmiths is like shooting IDPA, knowing how to manage a gunsmith is like USPSA.

Let’s start with the basics. What sane individual, with business sense and technical ability would chose to make a career around dealing with gun owners, working on guns. So almost by definition, they have a few screws loose, or they would do something more secure and lucrative like work as a mechanic for a car dealer.

I have had custom projects take over ten years, and almost every good project has been imperfect in some way on the first delivery. The first mistake is considering your needs, when you really need to start with an honest appraisal of the gunsmith’s strengths and weaknesses. Once you have an idea of what makes them tick, you can develop a relationship where you meet their needs, and in the process get what you need on a reasonable timeline.

I could go on for paragraphs, but what I said at the end of the previous paragraph is the secret code.

I wish you would start such a new thread. As pointed out by others, and deleted several times before I posted, it would be likely to have very useful application in other areas of life as well.

[okie john]

Bitching about gunsmiths is like shooting IDPA, knowing how to manage a gunsmith is like USPSA.

Let’s start with the basics. What sane individual, with business sense and technical ability would chose to make a career around dealing with gun owners, working on guns. So almost by definition, they have a few screws loose, or they would do something more secure and lucrative like work as a mechanic for a car dealer.

I have had custom projects take over ten years, and almost every good project has been imperfect in some way on the first delivery. The first mistake is considering your needs, when you really need to start with an honest appraisal of the gunsmith’s strengths and weaknesses. Once you have an idea of what makes them tick, you can develop a relationship where you meet their needs, and in the process get what you need on a reasonable timeline.

I could go on for paragraphs, but what I said at the end of the previous paragraph is the secret code.

This.

I prefer to define the problem as clearly as I can and let the smith solve it. For instance, when I wanted a 35 Whelen many years ago, I took a donor pre-64 Model 70 to Jim Cloward. I didn’t bitch about him keeping the stock and barrel to resell. He knew that I hunt in thick brush on steep terrain in wet weather, and that I walk a lot and usually shoot offhand. I asked for a stainless barrel and a synthetic stock, and asked him to tune the action as needed. I also told him that the rifle would have a 4x Leupold scope.

Then I wrote him a check (a bit smaller than expected) and went on about my business for several months.

The rifle came back with a 23” Lilja barrel, a Borden Rimrock stock, a perfect trigger, and a slick bolt. It weighed just under eight pounds with the scope and shot cloverleaf groups at 100 yards with 250-grain bullets at 2,500 fps. Best of all, it handled like a quail gun, which is what I really wanted.

But this approach only works with a smith who's really good at solving the kind of problem that you bring him, and those guys are like hen's teeth.


Okie John

[Clusterfrack]

Bitching about gunsmiths is like shooting IDPA, knowing how to manage a gunsmith is like USPSA.

Let’s start with the basics. What sane individual, with business sense and technical ability would chose to make a career around dealing with gun owners, working on guns. So almost by definition, they have a few screws loose, or they would do something more secure and lucrative like work as a mechanic for a car dealer.

I have had custom projects take over ten years, and almost every good project has been imperfect in some way on the first delivery. The first mistake is considering your needs, when you really need to start with an honest appraisal of the gunsmith’s strengths and weaknesses. Once you have an idea of what makes them tick, you can develop a relationship where you meet their needs, and in the process get what you need on a reasonable timeline.

I could go on for paragraphs, but what I said at the end of the previous paragraph is the secret code.

[Sigh]

Thanks @GJM. You make excellent points, and your post helped me take a step back and rethink some of my expectations.

If the 'smith does good honest work, I can get past unrealistic time and cost estimates, poor communication, etc. And if it's for something I really want or need, it's worth the gamble that I'll never see it and will lose my investment.

[Joe45]

Custom knife guys can be just as bad, btw, but that’s for another thread.

I have much more experience with the custom knife guys than the gunsmiths, and was thinking the same thing. Some are great at workmanship, but not so great at business practices. Fewer are the other way around. Very few are good at both.

[Duces Tecum]

Let’s start with the basics. What sane individual, with business sense and technical ability would chose to make a career around dealing with gun owners, working on guns.

Sadly, there is much truth in these words. Probably why I've avoided them for more than on 20 years, now.

. . . you really need to start with an honest appraisal of the gunsmith’s strengths and weaknesses.

No. That's the gunsmith's job. He's the one offering to do the work. To advertise a service when he has neither the tools, time, ability nor incentive to perform the work is (or should be) a fraudulent activity.

Once you have an idea of what makes them tick, you can develop a relationship where you meet their needs, and in the process get what you need on a reasonable timeline.

We've come full circle and are now back to the paragraph about gunsmith sanity. Gunsmiths who require not only a check but also an (undisclosed) therapeutic relationship are too much trouble to mess with. The problem is that one only discovers this after being burned.

[theJanitor]

No. That's the gunsmith's job. He's the one offering to do the work. To advertise a service when he has neither the tools, time, ability nor incentive to perform the work is (or should be) a fraudulent activity.

Buyer Beware, in everything you trade dollars for.

You look around for the "best" doctors, schools, plumbers, etc. Why would you look at gunsmiths differently?

[willie]

Bar Sto Precision has offered custom gun services for at least 30 years for semi auto handguns. Likewise Robar provides a long list of custom options for pistols and revolvers. These companies are well established.
It's likely that they are prosperous enough to pay for their mistakes if they fubared a customer's weapon. Some providers are not. If I were hiring a custom gunsmith, I would pay an extra $100 or more for extensive test firing. Over the years I've seen too many examples of defective handguns returned to the owner.

On a recent trip to Mississippi I stopped at Cajun Gun Works and spent a most pleasurable 45 minutes in their family owned shop. This place was highly organized and super clean. Work stations had numerous hand tools. The facility had the latest drilling and milling machines. I did not see Dremel type tools. The techs could completely detail strip and reassemble any CZ handgun within 4 minutes. Plus every single man and woman there was friendly, courteous, and enthusiastic. I have zero reservations about this shop. I called before leaving Texas. They said be sure to visit.

[GJM]

Many of the best gunsmiths have terrible turn around, sketchy billing practices, and poor communication skills. Not sure whether they started that way, or got that way because they can get away with it. I have had ten plus year “projects” with Richard Heinie, Wells Sports Shop, and Jim Brockman. I usually keep fifteen or so rifle projects and a half dozen pe-64 model 70 actions with Jim Brockman at all times, and generally get something done by scheduling a hunt or in person visit.

One advantage of all the great guns these days is you can get a darn shootable rifle or pistol out of the box or with minimal tweaking that you or even a just semi-skilled person can do. Ten, twenty years ago, basically everything required custom work and good out of the box firearms were a rarity.

To expand on my earlier post, money alone is not enough to get a consistent good product from a custom smith. You need to get to know them, develop a long term relationship, and figure out a personalized approach to motivate them. You also need to build in enough time to have one or two return trips for getting a real custom firearm finished.