How Important is Pre Travel Weight to a “Good” Trigger

[Doc_Glock]

I have been thinking about what makes certain guns triggers more forgiving from a pure shooting perspective. This has nothing to do with “safety”, etc.

I noticed, I tend to shoot 6-8lb DA pulls about the best for pure, slow accuracy. I also noticed that these pulls have no discernible wall at the end of pre travel, you just keep increasing the pressure, the trigger moves and it goes off without warning.

I have no experience with tuned practical shooting competition or bullseye guns, so won’t comment, but I think they have pretty light triggers.

I measure a bunch of guns to find out how heavy the wall is after pre travel is taken up:

Tuned CZ 75SA: 0.5 lbs
G19X: 1.5 lbs
Cent Tac with TJIB: 1.5 lbs
P30L: 1.5 lbs
G45: 1.5 lbs
VP9: 1.5 lbs
Stock LTT: 2.0 lbs
G48: 2.0 lbs
G4G19: 2.0 lbs
G3G26: 2.0 lbs
G43: 2.0 lbs

P2000 V2 LEM: 3.0lbs

Two stand outs: the CZ 75 and the LEM. I haven’t shot that CZ more than once, but I got 500 aggregate personal record that stood for two years the time I shot it. I have always shot the LEM worse than other triggers.

Makes you think. It also makes me think that increasing pre travel weight to the LEM is the way to go to make it better shooting, not decreasing that weight. Increasing pre travel weight will increase overall force, but decrease the or minimize that 3 lb wall as a percentage of that force.

I think this measurement also explains why the G5 Glock triggers are universally liked
better than prior generations. It may also explain a bit of why the VP9 is such a forgiving gun.

Interested in thoughts?

[Alpha Sierra]

Not sure I understand.

What do you call "pre-travel"? Is that trigger movement that has no effect on sear engagement? If so, then it doesn't matter to me.

My CZs have some, both in DA and in SA. It's so light that I don't notice it.

My S&W revolvers have no "pre-travel" at all. Any movement of the trigger immediately starts affecting something to do with dropping the hammer. Their single actions have no travel at all, or at least none that my finger can detect. Very crisp.

[Doc_Glock]

Not sure I understand.

What do you call "pre-travel"? Is that trigger movement that has no effect on sear engagement? If so, then it doesn't matter to me.

My CZs have some, both in DA and in SA. It's so light that I don't notice it.

My S&W revolvers have no "pre-travel" at all. Any movement of the trigger immediately starts affecting something to do with dropping the hammer. Their single actions have no travel at all, or at least none that my finger can detect. Very crisp.

I guess pre travel is an imprecise term. First stage take up is perhaps better? The weight of the trigger before it hits “the wall” prior to break.

Good DAO revolvers have essentially no wall, just heavy travel all the way through.

I am open to suggestions to change the title.

Also, I pressed send prematurely on my post so I added the trigger weights above.

[Alpha Sierra]

I see.

In that case, my two CZs feel a little different. My 75BD has no wall due to the spring changes and amount of internal polishing I've done to it. Feels almost like a revolver. My P-01 has a slight "wall" but I ignore it and don't focus on it. I work all DA triggers the same, adjusting the force I press it with as needed to continue moving it at a constant rate. Never stage them.

I think the common term for what you describe is stacking. None of my revolvers "stack" or have a "wall", they just roll through.

[JHC]

IDK.

I've got two questions that have me puzzled.

How did you find the "wall" on the G45? Its (and the 19X) rolling trigger doesn't present me with the stark "wall" that my older Glocks do. On the 43 however, it's noticeable.


How do you measure just the wall?



Now to you your central question - what makes a trigger forgiving (which is a very good question); lately I'm of the mind that how clean it finally breaks/fires is a pretty big deal. More so than take up. "Clean" being without a feeling of a dragging/sliding final break.

[CraigS]

Yes, how do you measure the wall? Measure the overall pull weight to fire the gun, measure the pull weight to just prior to hitting the wall and subtract it from the overall weight?

[Doc_Glock]

Yes, how do you measure the wall? Measure the overall pull weight to fire the gun, measure the pull weight to just prior to hitting the wall and subtract it from the overall weight?

Exactly.

[Doc_Glock]

IDK.

I've got two questions that have me puzzled.

How did you find the "wall" on the G45? Its (and the 19X) rolling trigger doesn't present me with the stark "wall" that my older Glocks do. On the 43 however, it's noticeable.


How do you measure just the wall?



Now to you your central question - what makes a trigger forgiving (which is a very good question); lately I'm of the mind that how clean it finally breaks/fires is a pretty big deal. More so than take up. "Clean" being without a feeling of a dragging/sliding final break.

I just put the trigger gauge on, noted where the pre travel was taken up and noted again where it broke. It isn’t terribly precise, but within 1/4 lb.

The G45 has a wall, it’s just kind of mushy and I think that is part of why I like the trigger so much compared to the crisper prior generations.

[GJM]

This could be an interesting topic.

My first reaction was here goes Eric focusing on hardware minutia, when he should be focusing on technique minutia. I still believe that it is only when he realizes the main factor in how he shoots different pistols is his ability, not hardware, that is when he will start making big progress.

That said, there are differences in how pistols shoot, and certainly trigger characteristics is a big part of that. Other factors are the grip of the pistol, the weight of the pistol, and how the pistol behaves in recoil.

In terms of trigger, I think you can tell a good trigger by feel, but it is harder to determine how a trigger is by measurement. I have also found that I need to work different triggers in different ways. For example, when I left the P09 last summer, I couldn’t press a Glock trigger the same, because of the Glock trigger’s amount of travel between wall and break, and had to learn a different way of working the Glock trigger.

[feudist]

This could be an interesting topic.

My first reaction was here goes Eric focusing on hardware minutia, when he should be focusing on technique minutia. I still believe that it is only when he realizes the main factor in how he shoots different pistols is his ability, not hardware, that is when he will start making big progress.

That said, there are differences in how pistols shoot, and certainly trigger characteristics is a big part of that. Other factors are the grip of the pistol, the weight of the pistol, and how the pistol behaves in recoil.

In terms of trigger, I think you can tell a good trigger by feel, but it is harder to determine how a trigger is by measurement. I have also found that I need to work different triggers in different ways. For example, when I left the P09 last summer, I couldn’t press a Glock trigger the same, because of the Glock trigger’s amount of travel between wall and break, and had to learn a different way of working the Glock trigger.

Do you rotate pistols on a particular schedule or is it just motivated by interest?

Also, I don't recall you writing about 1911s, do you not shoot those?