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Thread: The Run your Gun Standards

  1. #1

    The Run your Gun Standards

    At the close of my youtube videos I'm fond of saying "run your gun, not your mouth" despite the fact that I do both pretty frequently. I used to have a different name for this drill but I've taken to calling it the Run your Gun standards. Here's a video!



    If you can't watch video at work, you need an NRA AP Repair center which has a 4 inch X-ring and an 8 inch 10 ring. You fire four strings of six shots each, one string at 10 yards, next at 15, then 20, and finally at 25. Par times are 6, 9, 12, and 15 seconds for each distance. The Run your Gun Standards is a pass/fail drill: to pass you have to shoot all 10s or Xs. You fail if you shoot any rounds outside the 8 inch ten ring. Simple as that!

    Oh, pars are the same if you're shooting a red dot or an iron sight gun. A perfect score would be 240-24x, which I've never done.

  2. #2
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    I recently found your videos when I was researching the purchase of a Dan Wesson in 9mm. I think they are full of good practical information and opinion, kind of an oasis of common sense in a world of over the top youtube videos.
    I notice you're using a full size gun with a red dot. Are you standards relaxed for a more CCW friendly gun such as a Glock 19 with iron sights? What is the Run Your Gun Standard a standard of? I'm aware of the goal of being able to hit a grapefruit sized target from any distance, but as a practical matter, a self defense situation isn't going to be decided by the prerequisite of shooting to your standard. I'm thinking the FBI qualification using a Q target might be more relevant.


    ETA: Sorry, didn't see your comment that the standard is the same for iron sights.
    Last edited by Tom Duffy; 02-12-2019 at 09:58 AM.
    Real guns have hammers.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Duffy View Post
    I recently found your videos when I was researching the purchase of a Dan Wesson in 9mm. I think they are full of good practical information and opinion, kind of an oasis of common sense in a world of over the top youtube videos.
    I notice you're using a full size gun with a red dot. Are you standards relaxed for a more CCW friendly gun such as a Glock 19 with iron sights? What is the Run Your Gun Standard a standard of? I'm aware of the goal of being able to hit a grapefruit sized target from any distance, but as a practical matter, a self defense situation isn't going to be decided by the prerequisite of shooting to your standard. I'm thinking the FBI qualification using a Q target might be more relevant.


    ETA: Sorry, didn't see your comment that the standard is the same for iron sights.
    It's a test of on-demand marksmanship skills, nothing else. It doesn't really have anything to do with CCW in the sense that most people would understand; other than the fact that winning a defensive shooting or gunfight could very likely require some significant on-demand marksmanship skills.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Duffy View Post
    I'm thinking the FBI qualification using a Q target might be more relevant.
    The Q target is really, really big.

    If the area of the body where a physiological stop would occur is the area inside a triangle formed by the aortic notch and 2 nipples, Caleb's circle would fit inside that triangle.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by HopetonBrown View Post
    The Q target is really, really big.

    If the area of the body where a physiological stop would occur is the area inside a triangle formed by the aortic notch and 2 nipples, Caleb's circle would fit inside that triangle.
    I started getting serious about a 4 inch circle as an accuracy standard after I took The Armed Parent/Guardian course and part of that was showing the class the size of an anatomically correct heart.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Duffy View Post
    I'm thinking the FBI qualification using a Q target might be more relevant.
    I'll just pile on here and say that ANY of the popular LE qualification targets are too big. They are intended to get the standard mediocre to poor LE shooter across the qualification finish line where their pizza and trophy for being a "winner" await. I call them "No Cop Left Behind" targets. Use the recommended repair center or a B-8, in which the 8 ring is exactly 8" (same standard as the AP center).
    Regional Government Sales Manager for Aimpoint, Inc. USA
    Co-owner Hardwired Tactical Shooting (HiTS)

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wayne Dobbs View Post
    I'll just pile on here and say that ANY of the popular LE qualification targets are too big. They are intended to get the standard mediocre to poor LE shooter across the qualification finish line where their pizza and trophy for being a "winner" await. I call them "No Cop Left Behind" targets. Use the recommended repair center or a B-8, in which the 8 ring is exactly 8" (same standard as the AP center).
    I don't consider it piling on , because I understand and even agree with your point of view. Accuracy is essential. But I think your standards for accuracy, especially accuracy at a longer distance demonstrates a law enforcement bias. A civilian would have trouble justifying a 10 yard shot as self defense. Caleb's Run Your Gun Standard is an excellent test of overall shooting prowess, being a combination of draw, speed, and accuracy. But it's pretty much unobtainable for the average shooter given that one range session a week of a hundred rounds is "really working at it" and generally non-sustainable because life gets in the way.
    I just spent quite a bit of time searching for a video interview, posted on pistol forum in 2014 or 2015, by a Chicago SWAT team lieutenant who'd been involved 12 or so gunfights of the course of his career. His practice sessions were mostly at very close range, perhaps 3 yards with a smaller revolver, large XS sights, and a disproportionate attention to weak hand shooting. He said you'll usually be opening a door, carrying something or someone, escorting civilians, etc.
    My view has also been formed by some of John Murphy's videos showing incidents caught on surveillance cameras of actual muggings and robberies. Everything happens really close and really fast. Makes me think having a laser is better than having a red dot.
    I like the FBI qualification test. It's a test in which you have to demonstrate strong hand and weak hand shooting, reasonable facility with reloads, emphasizes more short distance shooting, while still including 25 yard shots. It also shows where you have particular areas of weakness that need to be improved while still passing the test. I think the qualification test is more than adequate for the FBI, given the nature of their work. They investigate, interview, and write reports. If you made the qualification sufficiently harder, you'd end up with a bunch of gunslingers who mostly couldn't do the work. If every cop and CCW holder could pass this qualification we'd be in a much better place.
    If Caleb's goal is to consistently hit a 4 inch heart sized target, why not just go for a headshot? Maybe because if he misses by a bit he's still got a hit on the Q target - a number of which will prove to be very effective.
    Real guns have hammers.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Duffy View Post
    A civilian would have trouble justifying a 10 yard shot as self defense.
    Tom Givens has said that out of his 65 students that have been in a gunfight, 2 were beyond 15 yards.

    To put that into perspective, just 3 of the 65 gunfights involved contact shots.

    I find the FBI qual to be a snooze fest.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by HopetonBrown View Post
    Tom Givens has said that out of his 65 students that have been in a gunfight, 2 were beyond 15 yards.

    To put that into perspective, just 3 of the 65 gunfights involved contact shots.

    I find the FBI qual to be a snooze fest.
    The new FBI Pistol Qual just released and it's a bit more sporty:

    FBI PISTOL QUALIFICATION COURSE
    Revised January 2019

    QIT Silhouette 2 points per hit

    3 Yards
    Draw and fire 3 rounds strong hand only, switch hands and fire 3 round support hand only, all in 6 seconds

    5 Yards
    Draw and fire 3 rounds in 3 seconds
    From the ready, fire 3 rounds in 2 seconds
    From the ready, fire 6 rounds in 4 seconds

    7 Yards
    Draw and fire 5 rounds in 5 seconds
    From the ready, fire 4 rounds, conduct an empty gun reload, and fire 4 more rounds all in 8 seconds
    From the ready, fire 5 rounds in 4 seconds

    15 Yards
    Draw and fire 3 rounds in 6 seconds
    From the ready, fire 3 rounds in 5 seconds

    25 Yards
    Draw and fire 4 rounds from standing, drop to kneeling position and fire 4 more rounds from kneeling, all in 20 seconds

    50 rounds 100 points possible 90 or above for instructors

    Our own Tom Givens had input with the training cadre at Quantico on this revision.
    Last edited by Wayne Dobbs; 02-15-2019 at 09:52 AM.
    Regional Government Sales Manager for Aimpoint, Inc. USA
    Co-owner Hardwired Tactical Shooting (HiTS)

  10. #10
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    ^^^^^^Need to get some QIT targets and try this.

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