DA/SA vs SFA vs ... -- 2019 Edition

[GJM]

This. A brief repost of mine from a lengthier thread on the topic ref: startle response and trigger checks:

Force Science Institute tested it with a P226, and noted there was a difference. In about 6 per cent of cases, enough trigger pressure was registered to have fired the pistol had it been uncocked (that is, mechanically set for an initial double-action trigger pull). In about 20 per cent of cases, the pressure was sufficient to have fired the gun had it been cocked (as with secondary rounds). The gun used had a 12-pound double-action trigger pull and a 5-pound pull, single-action.

So there is a measurable extra layer of safety. It's not foolproof, but I don't think anyone claims it is.

Doesn’t this assume the hammer is in DA, when most of the problems with a DA/SA come when the pistol is in SA and they think it is in DA?

[ChaseN]

Doesn’t this assume the hammer is in DA, when most of the problems with a DA/SA come when the pistol is in SA and they think it is in DA?

I'm interested in this. Is there data on the phenomenon?

[UNK]

Doesn’t this assume the hammer is in DA, when most of the problems with a DA/SA come when the pistol is in SA and they think it is in DA?

I've never shot this trigger type but I'm starting to get interested. When would it occur that a person thinks it is DA when it's actually in SA?

[Xrslug]

I've never shot this trigger type but I'm starting to get interested. When would it occur that a person thinks it is DA when it's actually in SA?

For one, when they forget to decock and don’t realize they’ve forgotten to decock.

[GJM]

I'm interested in this. Is there data on the phenomenon?

Start by reading incidents 1, 5 and 6:

https://www.frontsight.com/SafetyReports.asp

[BehindBlueI's]

Doesn’t this assume the hammer is in DA, when most of the problems with a DA/SA come when the pistol is in SA and they think it is in DA?

Assumed? No, it's specifically stated and DA vs SA was the main part of the study. The post-comma part would depend on context. "Most of the problems" where? On the range during repetitive drills, probably. During admin handling, no. During a "real world" draw, no. During a post-confrontation holstering, potentially, where now it's the same as a single action with the safety off.

For one, when they forget to decock and don’t realize they’ve forgotten to decock.

Correct. Which is why this is more of a range problem then an off-range problem. On the range, you're much more likely to be holstering a just-fired gun and then immediately drawing and presenting again while your adrenaline is still up, your "muscle memory" of where the trigger breaks is still strong in your subconscious, and you are under time pressure (real or imagined).

I never had a case of someone shooting themselves upon re-holstering with a hammer fired gun, and that includes both TDA and 1911 or similar guns. I never had an example of a hammer fired gun firing in the holster. I'm sure there are examples out there of both, mind you, and I'm not sure how much is actually the hardware. If a striker fired gun fires in a hooded holster where the hood would have prevented the discharge, you can be pretty sure a TDA wouldn't have fired in the same circumstance. However that's an extremely tiny subsection of all UDs.

What I can tell you is TDAs, 1911's and revolvers were involved in waaaaay fewer UDs causing injury or death then the striker fired guns in my records. What I can't tell you generally, is why. I've no way to suss out if it's how much they are handled, if it's who is attracted to them vs who is most likely to have a UD, I don't know. Cheaper guns are also more prevalent. Is it because they are more prevalent for carry, or because people who buy cheap guns have poorer gun handling when taken as a group? I've no idea.

Revolvers, I'm positive the easier clearing, the fact a round isn't "hidden" in a chamber when the others are removed, and the lack of the need to pull the trigger before break down is a huge advantage to the masses in lowering UD rates. I'm reasonably sure the 1911 enjoys a similar advantage, although not perhaps as pronounced, due to the more complex break down process of the 1911 and the fact it doesn't need a trigger press.

Start by reading incidents 1, 5 and 6:

https://www.frontsight.com/SafetyReports.asp

#1

Speculation is that the student may have failed to fully depress the decocking lever or depressed the slide release lever, thinking he had depressed the decocking lever.

#5

The student stated that he probably did not decock the hammer after his last firing drill and before holstering.

#6

The student commented that he probably did not decock the hammer after his last firing drill

So each is assumed to have, but none are proven to have, failed to decock? Then gotten on the trigger too early? Is anyone advocating getting on the trigger that early and beginning to prep the trigger while still muzzling yourself? What's the assumption with the multitude of Tex Grebner reenactors who've done the same with a SAO with thumb safety or striker fired guns in the exact same manner? I think it's safe to say getting on the trigger that early in the draw stroke is problematic, regardless of trigger type. Drawing with your finger in the trigger guard so it fires while still partially holstered is problematic, regardless of trigger type.

[Alpha Sierra]

Start by reading incidents 1, 5 and 6:

https://www.frontsight.com/SafetyReports.asp

As said, it's an additional layer of safety that requires proper operation of the handgun. Not sure why that's controversial?

[Alpha Sierra]

That heavy trigger on the DA is very nice until you put six pounds of pressure on what you expect is a ten pound DA trigger, and it really was in SA. Or, when you holster a DA/SA in SA with your finger on the trigger.

Do you train yourself to flip up an AR's safety every time your sights are not on target?

Do you train yourself to flip up a 1911's safety every time your sights are not on target?

If the answer is yes to either, why would it be shocking to apply the same standard to pressing a decocker in the same situations?

[oldtexan]

This thread has become a discussion of the advantages/disadvantages of DA/SA guns versus striker-fired guns, etc, though it still carries a title that would suggest it focuses on the anticipated single stack version of the APX pistol. This disconnect is likely to confuse some folks, and frustrate those looking for info on the new APX single stack. I request that a moderator change the title of the thread or split off into a different thread the posts that don't pertain to the single stack APX.

[Alpha Sierra]

I'll go ahead and end the debate by providing the correct answer (which I don't think has been mentioned yet). DAO.

I need to find me one of those S&W 59XX pistols with the DAO trigger. I heard it's pretty sweet.

Oh shit, I'm in trouble now.....If CZ Custom can turn a P-07 into DAO, they can do it to any 75 variant. I can see me sending them a P-01 so they do this to it......https://czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=77593.0;nowap