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Thread: DA/SA vs SFA vs ... -- 2019 Edition

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by El Cid View Post
    Agreed. So why have it? I had heard it was good for folks moving from revolvers to pistols back when there were lots of shooters making that change, but if we can train a shooter to an acceptable level why have Da/SA?
    From Todd L. Green, quoted by Lucky Gunner

    https://www.luckygunner.com/lounge/w...double-action/

    “[With] a trigger pull that is both longer and heavier than most other actions, there is far more tactile feedback that the trigger is being pulled in between the start of inadvertent unintentional movement and the Big Loud Noise. We’ve lost sight of this as a community with the prevalence of ever lighter and shorter striker fired action triggers and candidly I doubt we’ll see the pendulum swing back any time soon… The shooting community always blames the operator for every accident and never considers the role that equipment plays in making some guns more or less likely to facilitate those accidents.”
    Ernest Langdon, beginning at around 2:15

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Db8t-f54Im0

    I'm not trying to convince you to choose a DA/SA gun, I'm just answering your question.

    Since you mentioned you have 1911 and Browning Hi-Power experience, do we carry 1911's and Hi-Power's with the safety's off? No, because we think it's unsafe to have such a short, light trigger without a safety. Striker's are generally considered "safer" than a 1911 or Hi-Power with no safety because there is more trigger travel and, generally, a heavier trigger. Likewise, a DA/SA pistol is generally considered safer than a striker fired pistol because it has yet a longer and heavier trigger, not to mention the visual, and often tactile hammer.
    Last edited by JTQ; 02-07-2019 at 07:56 PM.

  2. #32
    Site Supporter Les Pepperoni's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by El Cid View Post
    So why have it?
    Mostly because I trust the 92.

    Partly, because I'll be damed if I switch to a Walther or HK striker that goes to 1/2 cock when tapped on the top with a mallet (you ever seen Paul Sharp's hands?) or trust my junk to a Sig<insert product here that was recalled: 365 || 320>.

    Which leaves the Glock. I've shot a lifetimes worth of .40 through a series of 'em and don't dislike them, but, I just liked the CZ and the 92 that much more... I think I shoot ok with it, or do you want to argue about that too?
    Last edited by Les Pepperoni; 02-07-2019 at 08:38 PM.

  3. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by LockedBreech View Post
    Very hard market to compete it with Glock and Sig and Smith
    I can't help but wonder if Beretta is trying to capture the high-end pistol intelligentsia with the PX4 Compact Carry and 92 LTT Elite so that they say nice things about Beretta to the hoi polloi who buy things like single-stack striker fired Shield competitors.

  4. #34
    Having shot some different pistols, and been doing internet for a while, it is obvious to me where these discussions come off the rails.

    If someone says I love shooting a 92 or whatever for these reasons it is all good. The problems start when someone doesn’t just say I love the X for these reasons, but goes further and also says “I really like the X even more because Y and Z suck.” My experience is there isn’t a perfect pistol, they all have their strengths and weaknesses, and most can be shot pretty well. People don’t mind you touting what you like but they react poorly to you running down what they shoot in the process.
    Likes pretty much everything in every caliber.

  5. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by GJM View Post
    Having shot some different pistols, and been doing internet for a while, it is obvious to me where these discussions come off the rails.

    If someone says I love shooting a 92 or whatever for these reasons it is all good. The problems start when someone doesn’t just say I love the X for these reasons, but goes further and also says “I really like the X even more because Y and Z suck.” My experience is there isn’t a perfect pistol, they all have their strengths and weaknesses, and most can be shot pretty well. People don’t mind you touting what you like but they react poorly to you running down what they shoot in the process.
    I think this is dead on.

    Having shot and competed with so many different pistols, I've personally come to the conclusion that it is a game of tradeoffs. I'd love a Glock 48 size/weight DA/SA that shoots like a Shadow 2, has a big magwell, is capable of 2" groups at 50y, and has crazy amounts aftermarket support, but it doesn't exist (and probably never will). We are all having to prioritize what we find most valuable, which is why this section of the forum exists.

    As far as a Beretta APX single stack, I think it would be semi-interesting. I at least would be very confident it would run reliably.
    Last edited by Kirk; 02-08-2019 at 09:33 AM.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by GJM View Post
    Having shot some different pistols, and been doing internet for a while, it is obvious to me where these discussions come off the rails.

    If someone says I love shooting a 92 or whatever for these reasons it is all good. The problems start when someone doesn’t just say I love the X for these reasons, but goes further and also says “I really like the X even more because Y and Z suck.” My experience is there isn’t a perfect pistol, they all have their strengths and weaknesses, and most can be shot pretty well. People don’t mind you touting what you like but they react poorly to you running down what they shoot in the process.
    Lots of truth to this. As a example, I paid $380 or so for my M2.0 Smiths and I also shot a $1200 Legion 226 and they were both really nice in their own ways. We are spoiled for choice in a big, big way these days. I have no brand rivalry in me despite my deep affection for Berettas because they're what I learned on.
    Assistant District Attorney (the jerk that makes you change your affidavit)| Admitted Beretta Fanboy

  7. #37
    Member Alpha Sierra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by El Cid View Post
    So why have it?
    Because many of us can choose anything we want and we choose DA/SA.

  8. #38
    Site Supporter jetfire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by perlslacker View Post
    I can't help but wonder if Beretta is trying to capture the high-end pistol intelligentsia with the PX4 Compact Carry and 92 LTT Elite so that they say nice things about Beretta to the hoi polloi who buy things like single-stack striker fired Shield competitors.
    Not really, because those are limited editions. Because they're marketed to enthusiasts with a built in audience, they'll sell all of those pistols that they make but they also won't make a whole lot of those guns. What Beretta really needs is for people to buy the APX because they actually make money when you buy an APX.
    I shot the PX4 before it was cool.

  9. #39
    Site Supporter Les Pepperoni's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jetfire View Post
    Not really, because those are limited editions. Because they're marketed to enthusiasts with a built in audience, they'll sell all of those pistols that they make but they also won't make a whole lot of those guns. What Beretta really needs is for people to buy the APX because they actually make money when you buy an APX.
    C'mon, let's face it: Pistols are something that Beretta sells in order to sell you a high-end shotgun...



    Quote Originally Posted by perlslacker
    I can't help but wonder if Beretta is trying to capture the high-end pistol intelligentsia with the PX4 Compact Carry and 92 LTT Elite so that they say nice things about Beretta to the hoi polloi who buy things like single-stack striker fired Shield competitors.
    Yeah... IDK. I mean, Ernest worked at Beretta for a long time. Bill Wilson has liked the 92 for a long time... I think the Beretta pistol consiglieres are finally listening to some of the good ideas that are coming in...

  10. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by JTQ View Post
    From Todd L. Green, quoted by Lucky Gunner

    https://www.luckygunner.com/lounge/w...double-action/



    Ernest Langdon, beginning at around 2:15

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Db8t-f54Im0

    I'm not trying to convince you to choose a DA/SA gun, I'm just answering your question.

    Since you mentioned you have 1911 and Browning Hi-Power experience, do we carry 1911's and Hi-Power's with the safety's off? No, because we think it's unsafe to have such a short, light trigger without a safety. Striker's are generally considered "safer" than a 1911 or Hi-Power with no safety because there is more trigger travel and, generally, a heavier trigger. Likewise, a DA/SA pistol is generally considered safer than a striker fired pistol because it has yet a longer and heavier trigger, not to mention the visual, and often tactile hammer.
    Quote Originally Posted by Les Pepperoni View Post
    Mostly because I trust the 92.

    Partly, because I'll be damed if I switch to a Walther or HK striker that goes to 1/2 cock when tapped on the top with a mallet (you ever seen Paul Sharp's hands?) or trust my junk to a Sig<insert product here that was recalled: 365 || 320>.

    Which leaves the Glock. I've shot a lifetimes worth of .40 through a series of 'em and don't dislike them, but, I just liked the CZ and the 92 that much more... I think I shoot ok with it, or do you want to argue about that too?
    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha Sierra View Post
    Because many of us can choose anything we want and we choose DA/SA.


    I'm in no way saying people shouldn't own, carry or use DA/SA guns. If that's what you like, go for it. I do think they are unnecessary as a technology, but I'm not telling anyone not to have one. My comments were to counter the "DA/SA is the best and SFA are dangerous" mindset. I know there is a lot of love for them here at PF, and I usually scroll past all the "DA/SA is the greatest" proclamations. Occasionally though my tolerance filter gets full and I feel compelled to reply.

    Regarding Todd and Ernie's quotes, I have considerable respect for them and their backgrounds. But in my experience, being able to recognize the longer press, sense the hammer, etc. only happens on the flat range, or during dry fire. For most users when you add stress, they won't notice any of that and if they are poorly trained a ND will result with any trigger system. I have long believed any trigger that has enough weight and travel to prevent ND's under stress would be so horrible that the gun would be unshootable.

    Regarding C&L guns like the 1911 or BHP, they are similar in that every trigger press is the same. But they have safeties and we use them because the hammer is fully cocked. The trigger just releases the hammer. It's funny you mention that because I am uncomfortable with the fully tensions striker guns on the market. I carry/shoot Glocks almost exclusively (all with factory triggers), and I just ordered an APX which from my research is only partially cocked.

    Again - carry/shoot whatever you want. But I don't believe DA/SA makes anyone safer than SFA or SA guns. A shooter who doesn't keep the finger off the trigger can have an ND with any style of trigger mechanism.

    Grainy video but it looks like a Beretta 92 series to me. I suppose she could have thumb cocked the gun, but I don’t believe any shots were fired before this incident, which means she pressed all the way through a DA trigger.

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