DA/SA vs SFA vs ... -- 2019 Edition

[Bucky]

At the end of the day, I think most of you are missing the main factor in this debate.

The Polymer frame, striker fired guns is the future for one simple reason, it is cheap and easy to make. The manufacturers want you to buy them because they make more money on them. They are going to spend the money to market those guns to the gun buying public. Also, because they cost less to build, they will continue to win bids for agency purchases. As time passes, more and more military and law enforcement will have only been exposed to SFA handguns. More and more firearms instructors with real-world backgrounds will only know SFA and how to teach SFA. The arguments will keep going down the path of "anything else is just stupid". Set aside the fact that many gunfights have been won with TDA guns, guys continue to set personal best with TDA guns and win competitions with TDA guns. In many cases shooting them even better than what is supposed to be easier to shoot, like a 1911s, it will not matter. The mantra of, there is no need for two trigger pulls will keep taking hold. I personally know multiple police officers that have holstered their Berettas with the hammer in the half cock position. And they credit the DA trigger to saving more than just a life. But even with that, the bravado of "keep your booger hook off the bang switch bro" will keep getting repeated.

The facts are all there, but some will continue to manipulate them and show the one video from 20 years ago to prove our points and win the fight for the SFA gun.

It makes me sad, but I will keep trying to help the guys that want quality TDA guns for as long as I can. I still think they are important and relevant, thankfully I am not alone, at least not yet.

Excellent post!!

BTW, which is the “one video” you refer to?

[gomerpyle]

OMG... We're still talking bout this?

Dudes... go to the fridge, grab a beer and celebrate that you can do pretty much whatever the hell you want in this country...

Better be an IPA. REAL beer lovers drink only IPAs, the TDA pistol of the beer world!

[spinmove_]

At the end of the day, I think most of you are missing the main factor in this debate.

The Polymer frame, striker fired guns is the future for one simple reason, it is cheap and easy to make. The manufacturers want you to buy them because they make more money on them. They are going to spend the money to market those guns to the gun buying public. Also, because they cost less to build, they will continue to win bids for agency purchases. As time passes, more and more military and law enforcement will have only been exposed to SFA handguns. More and more firearms instructors with real-world backgrounds will only know SFA and how to teach SFA. The arguments will keep going down the path of "anything else is just stupid". Set aside the fact that many gunfights have been won with TDA guns, guys continue to set personal best with TDA guns and win competitions with TDA guns. In many cases shooting them even better than what is supposed to be easier to shoot, like a 1911s, it will not matter. The mantra of, there is no need for two trigger pulls will keep taking hold. I personally know multiple police officers that have holstered their Berettas with the hammer in the half cock position. And they credit the DA trigger to saving more than just a life. But even with that, the bravado of "keep your booger hook off the bang switch bro" will keep getting repeated.

The facts are all there, but some will continue to manipulate them and show the one video from 20 years ago to prove our points and win the fight for the SFA gun.

It makes me sad, but I will keep trying to help the guys that want quality TDA guns for as long as I can. I still think they are important and relevant, thankfully I am not alone, at least not yet.

Well, I’d say you’re doing a hell of a job in keeping the dream alive. I definitely see the merit in the TDA system. It’s a tough battle though against an arguably simpler system. People like “simple” and “good enough”. Unfortunately I don’t think we’re going to see TDA pistols re-take the market unless there’s some kind of resurgence in thinking about pistols from a “people management” perspective instead of a “pure shootability” perspective.

Currently in my journey as a pistol shooter I’ve gone back and forth on if I want to really move to TDA predominantly over my Glocks or not. I’ve got FAR more trigger time on Glocks than anything else and logistics are a thing for a dude with a family and a zero firearm inclusion profession. That said I don’t really shoot my 92 with some personal tweaks that much worse than my Glocks. The DA press also translates well to practicing with my NPE carry gun (J-frame) so there’s some merit to that as well.

Part of the problem with the Beretta 92 specifically though is that, at the moment, there’s no good way to mount a red dot to it. Granted that is probably not an impossibility, nor is having a red dot a requirement, but it is going to eventually become the de facto sighting system on handguns. I know you’re working on a solution now, and I’m very interested in seeing it’s final form, but it is a thing to consider.

All in all, a TDA pistol does make a lot of sense, particularly to me. Unfortunately, due to logistics, so do Glocks. Not an easy decision to make.


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[Rex G]

If only Beretta made a DA/SA single stack..the market is crowded with SFA single stacks.

I would be interested. I liked the idea of first 92 variant with a single-column mag, back in the day, though the slide and the safety levers remained quite as wide as the standard 92, if I remember correctly. I keep hoping for one to show up at a large local gun store, so I can revisit the idea.

I will mention that I recently bought a pre-owned, well-preserved S&W 3913 TSW, with accessory rail, which, if reliable, and I can source a good carry rig, may well serve as my new serious slim-line nine. I briefly used an original 3913, and a 3953, in the early/mid-Nineties, so know I like the platform well enough. The parts supply, however, is finite, so, assuming S&W will not revive their 3rd-Generation autos, I will consider any any excellent slim-line nine that is offered by a quality maker.

Edited to add: I still like full-sized 1911 pistols, but swore off compact 1911s some time ago. The compact, but not too compact, slim-line nine fills a niche for me. I do not see DA/SA - SFA - DA - SA to be a zero-sum game.

[GJM]

Here is my take on this topic.

In years past, polymer guns were not nearly as refined, and generally had less usable triggers and less accuracy than the metal guns. The military and many LE organizations used metal guns.

Today things have changed, and with the Gen 5 guns, Glock now makes guns that eject vigorously, are accurate, have usable stock triggers, and with BOLD sights can be literally taken out of the box and put into service. For 90 percent of EDC use, a person could be well served with a Glock 43X, and for 90 percent of LE use, with a Glock 45/45 MOS. Besides hardware, the Glock costs less, is easier to maintain, and easier to accessorize. For basic level shooting, the Glock is easier to teach. The combination of all these factors — cost/maintenance/accessories/training has put a hurt on metal guns for LE and non-enthusiast citizen use.

At the same time that the Glock has taken over the LE and non-enthusiast EDC markets, metal guns have become a performance/enthusiast product, and continued to develop, although that market is much smaller than for LE and common EDC. CZ is selling a bunch of pistols, Tanfoglio has its fans, and even Walther has brought out a metal gun. Going the opposite direction, Sig has largely abandoned metal for competition, and made its bet in the 320 X5.

Beretta, despite having a big lead in years with the 92 series, has been slow to bring new products to this market, whether competive polymer striker offerings or metal guns targeting performance shooters. Ernest has done an amazing job, as has Bill Wilson, but what was missing was a major corporate emphasis by Beretta on making competitive products. For mature eyed competitive shooters the red dot is a game changer, and unfortunately the 92 does not easily lend itself to adding a red dot. Metal guns lost the LE/EDC market, and have become enthusiast guns, but without a red dot, that limits Beretta to those shooters wanting a metal gun with only iron sights.

What is interesting is CZ Custom, after popularizing the Shadow 1 for competition, has brought out first the Bull Shadow, selling a bunch of them, and now has their new metal Production gun near delivery. That shows there is interest for new performance metal guns, that have the right feature set, although that is a much smaller market than the LE/EDC market, which is now striker fired.

[medmo]

But you're already rocking the Px4 Compact Carry, so...*shrug*.

True. Fact.

I've gone through my own lengthy quest through the SFA world to get to where I am now. The PX4 CC fits the bill perfectly for me. I could put a long list together of why my carry preference is the PX4 CC. Some of the primary reasons are that I really enjoy shooting it, I shoot it very well and the reduced risk of unintentional Big Loud Noise.

[Clusterfrack]

Add a Gadget (SCD), and a Glock is even more well suited for EDC.

If I didn’t compete with Shadow2s, I could be perfectly happy carrying a Glock instead of a P07.

Here is my take on this topic.

In years past, polymer guns were not nearly as refined, and generally had less usable triggers and less accuracy than the metal guns. The military and many LE organizations used metal guns.

Today things have changed, and with the Gen 5 guns, Glock now makes guns that eject vigorously, are accurate, have usable stock triggers, and with BOLD sights can be literally taken out of the box and put into service. For 90 percent of EDC use, a person could be well served with a Glock 43X, and for 90 percent of LE use, with a Glock 45/45 MOS. Besides hardware, the Glock costs less, is easier to maintain, and easier to accessorize. For basic level shooting, the Glock is easier to teach. The combination of all these factors — cost/maintenance/accessories/training has put a hurt on metal guns for LE and non-enthusiast citizen use.

At the same time that the Glock has taken over the LE and non-enthusiast EDC markets, metal guns have become a performance/enthusiast product, and continued to develop, although that market is much smaller than for LE and common EDC. CZ is selling a bunch of pistols, Tanfoglio has its fans, and even Walther has brought out a metal gun. Going the opposite direction, Sig has largely abandoned metal for competition, and made its bet in the 320 X5.

Beretta, despite having a big lead in years with the 92 series, has been slow to bring new products to this market, whether competive polymer striker offerings or metal guns targeting performance shooters. Ernest has done an amazing job, as has Bill Wilson, but what was missing was a major corporate emphasis by Beretta on making competitive products. For mature eyed competitive shooters the red dot is a game changer, and unfortunately the 92 does not easily lend itself to adding a red dot. Metal guns lost the LE/EDC market, and have become enthusiast guns, but without a red dot, that limits Beretta to those shooters wanting a metal gun with only iron sights.

What is interesting is CZ Custom, after popularizing the Shadow 1 for competition, has brought out first the Bull Shadow, selling a bunch of them, and now has their new metal Production gun near delivery. That shows there is interest for new performance metal guns, that have the right feature set, although that is a much smaller market than the LE/EDC market, which is now striker fired.

[Sal Picante]

s. Ernest has done an amazing job, as has Bill Wilson, but what was missing was a major corporate emphasis by Beretta on making competitive products. For mature eyed competitive shooters the red dot is a game changer, and unfortunately the 92 does not easily lend itself to adding a red dot. Metal guns lost the LE/EDC market, and have become enthusiast guns, but without a red dot, that limits Beretta to those shooters wanting a metal gun with only iron

Man... Raffica slides have a lot of room on top for optics... They are also beefy... 9Major? Might be doable...

[spinmove_]

Man... Raffica slides have a lot of room on top for optics... They are also beefy... 9Major? Might be doable...

Good luck getting a hold of some, unless you already know of a source. BUIS are probably going to look goofy as hell on it too. Unless of course you’re of the mindset that the optic should be durable enough to not need them, which I actually do understand that for a pistol.


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[Sal Picante]

Good luck getting a hold of some, unless you already know of a source. BUIS are probably going to look goofy as hell on it too. Unless of course you’re of the mindset that the optic should be durable enough to not need them, which I actually do understand that for a pistol.


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Just saying the slide dimensions on the 93-profile slide are bigger... There is also a different FP block, I think...

Just spit-balling, tho...