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Thread: DA/SA vs SFA vs ... -- 2019 Edition

  1. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Sellers View Post
    Why don't more people use it then?

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  2. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aisin Gioro View Post
    This, so much this. The DAO has a terrible image problem with the general shooting population, but in reality, I think it offers an awful lot of advantages with few disadvantages. I suspect part of the problem is that most of those disadvantages show up more apparently in competition/gaming than they do in real-life duty and defense use and, like it or not, games are driving the market more and more these days. Hence we get people running Skimmers, etc. even in their carry guns, because, hey, it worked so well in the IDPA club matches they shot last year and "OMG, my splits!".

    Compared to the shorter learning curve of striker guns, the DAO just seems too arcane for many people. At the institutional level, getting good quals means a bit more time, money, and effort teaching people (often people with limited enthusiasm for shooting) how to gain the advantages of the DAO. Those are three things that most organizations are already short of, and since you don't really appreciate the advantages of the DAO until you either examine the issue from all angles or actually experience them, there isn't much impetus to spend precious resources overcoming the more elongated learning curve. To slightly paraphrase Charles MacKay from Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds, "The crowd does not form a new average, it finds the lowest common denominator." Striker fired actions fit the most apparent needs of the lowest common denominator, which is not necessarily a bad thing, but does eclipse some really strong benefits that the extra investment in DAO can bring. Ironically, the DAO also meets the needs of the lowest common denominator in some other important ways, but those seem to get lost in the shuffle more now than they did in, say, the early 1990s.

    Not saying it's the only good option, or even that it's always the best option, but DAO is almost always something to take a long look at for people interested in pistols for serious purposes.
    This is complicated by the fact that all DAOs are not created equal. I went shooting with a former co-worker, who had detested the trigger of his previously issued legacy DAO P226, and therefore had a dim view of the concept of DAO. He was totally blown away by the trigger in my P250.

    Quote Originally Posted by GlockenSpiel View Post
    Additionally, for guns like Berettas that fully decock the hammer, if you run them with no safety, aren't you just relying on the firing pin block to prevent an impact to the hammer from setting it off? I'm not sure how that's practically better than a glock either.
    Quote Originally Posted by GlockenSpiel View Post
    Presumably, that gun has a normal, working firing pin block, which is why it won't fire when the fully-lowered hammer is impacted.
    My point is, if you're carrying a DA beretta without the safety on, you're relying on the firing pin block. Why would you not then trust the firing pin block to do the same in a striker-fired gun?
    Actually, no. Some older revolvers are only safe with an empty chamber under the hammer, but more modern ones can have all the chambers filled. Modern firing pins are not long enough to touch the primer with the hammer at rest. They require the hammer to get a running start and gather some momentum to overcome the firing pin spring. Take a series 70 1911...with the hammer down, you can pound on the hammer spur all you want without the pin touching the primer. As a matter of fact, the springs of firing pins in guns with hammers exert force in exactly the opposite fashion as those of strikers. They resist the movement of the pin, whereas striker spring tension is what makes SFA guns function.
    Last edited by Chuck Whitlock; 02-17-2019 at 05:40 PM.
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  3. #193
    Quote Originally Posted by GreggW View Post
    Just carry multiple j frames.
    That would be a NY reload!

  4. #194
    Member Aisin Gioro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Whitlock View Post
    This is complicated by the fact that all DAOs are not created equal. I went shooting with a former co-worker, who had detested the trigger of his previously issued legacy DAO P226, and therefore had a dim view of the concept of DAO. He was totally blown away by the trigger in my P250.
    Good point. I got so spoiled by things like the 92D, a good S&W 3953, the p250, or even some DAK guns that I tend to forget about things like the USP Compact in true DAO from years ago (thankfully replaced by the LEM these days, but every bit as bad as it sounds).

  5. #195
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    If he liked your 250 I wonder what he'd say about a DAK.

  6. #196
    Quote Originally Posted by medmo View Post
    I phoned Beretta USA and asked them about future plans to release an APX with a safety. Response: Nope. My brain will not allow me to carry a SFA without a safety AIWB. I'm not missing out on anything as the PX4 Compact Carry fills the role very nicely.
    They might not release an APX with a safety, but they have already released a kit for you to convert your APX to a frame-mounted manual safety version. So now you can have your APX both ways. But you're already rocking the Px4 Compact Carry, so...*shrug*.

  7. #197
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    Quote Originally Posted by arcfide View Post
    They might not release an APX with a safety, but they have already released a kit for you to convert your APX to a frame-mounted manual safety version. So now you can have your APX both ways. But you're already rocking the Px4 Compact Carry, so...*shrug*.
    Really? That's cool. Glad they had the sense to offer that. I mean... the gun was designed for it anyway. Seems like kind of a no-brainer.

  8. #198
    Quote Originally Posted by MattyD380 View Post
    Really? That's cool. Glad they had the sense to offer that. I mean... the gun was designed for it anyway. Seems like kind of a no-brainer.
    Based on my experience with base Beretta product releases, it appears that Beretta is doing everything that they can to make the APX a success, and doing a lot of "aftermarket" support seems to be part of that. They've been regularly releasing parts, accessories and other things for the platform since its release. A lot of us didn't think that Beretta would release the safety kit, so it's been a bit of a wow moment that it's actually here.

    To me, a frame safety with "single action" autos like the VP9, PPQ, or APX type triggers seems like a great way to get a poor man's 1911.

  9. #199
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    Quote Originally Posted by arcfide View Post
    To me, a frame safety with "single action" autos like the VP9, PPQ, or APX type triggers seems like a great way to get a poor man's 1911.
    I agree. In a way we've come full circle, back to SAO. After DA/SA, DAO, and the existential gray area of SFA... it's like everyone forgot that a really nice trigger with a decent safety works too.

  10. #200
    At the end of the day, I think most of you are missing the main factor in this debate.

    The Polymer frame, striker fired guns is the future for one simple reason, it is cheap and easy to make. The manufacturers want you to buy them because they make more money on them. They are going to spend the money to market those guns to the gun buying public. Also, because they cost less to build, they will continue to win bids for agency purchases. As time passes, more and more military and law enforcement will have only been exposed to SFA handguns. More and more firearms instructors with real-world backgrounds will only know SFA and how to teach SFA. The arguments will keep going down the path of "anything else is just stupid". Set aside the fact that many gunfights have been won with TDA guns, guys continue to set personal best with TDA guns and win competitions with TDA guns. In many cases shooting them even better than what is supposed to be easier to shoot, like a 1911s, it will not matter. The mantra of, there is no need for two trigger pulls will keep taking hold. I personally know multiple police officers that have holstered their Berettas with the hammer in the half cock position. And they credit the DA trigger to saving more than just a life. But even with that, the bravado of "keep your booger hook off the bang switch bro" will keep getting repeated.

    The facts are all there, but some will continue to manipulate them and show the one video from 20 years ago to prove our points and win the fight for the SFA gun.

    It makes me sad, but I will keep trying to help the guys that want quality TDA guns for as long as I can. I still think they are important and relevant, thankfully I am not alone, at least not yet.
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