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Thread: NoVA: Elite Shooting Sports Practical Carbine and Threat Response Level One

  1. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Wake27 View Post
    I do, every single time. We can argue this all we want but I won’t change my mind on it, and I know of a few respected trainers that would say the same because it’s a basic rule of firearms safety. We can put it on the timer if you guys want, I’d be curious to see how it goes.


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    I am asking you why you do it, and why it makes sense to you? I am not asking for a regurgitated dogmatic approach because someone else said to. I am asking for personal investment in why you are so adamant about a specific technique.

    I could care less what a timer says. Also, there are times I agree with you, and times I do not.

    My point is these things are situational, and usually not looked at in the totality of the circumstances. So, just curious why you made this such a hard and fast all the time......
    "When the hour of crisis comes, remember that 40 selected men can shake the world." -- Yasotay

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by vmi-mo View Post
    I am asking you why you do it, and why it makes sense to you? I am not asking for a regurgitated dogmatic approach because someone else said to. I am asking for personal investment in why you are so adamant about a specific technique.

    I could care less what a timer says. Also, there are times I agree with you, and times I do not.

    My point is these things are situational, and usually not looked at in the totality of the circumstances. So, just curious why you made this such a hard and fast all the time......
    I already explained that in post six. I don't throw it into fire until I'm on my sights, and they're on target. I am not one of the few guys that trains to reload without bringing the weapon off target, so ANY time I come off my sights or my weapon comes off target, it goes on safe. Everyone acknowledges that consistency is king when shooting. I believe if you train to reload without putting it on safe, you're training a bad habit of breaking your sight picture while the gun is still on fire, and its more likely you'll do that at the wrong time like when the gun is still loaded. I typically agree that there are many ways to do something based on the situation, but this is not one of them. The only exception in my mind with this one is when the weapon can't go on safe because of the hammer, but the attempt is still made to do so. Plus, you're improving the safety of yourself and everyone around you, with a very small movement and a fraction of a second. There's no reason not to do it.

  3. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Wake27 View Post
    I already explained that in post six. I don't throw it into fire until I'm on my sights, and they're on target. I am not one of the few guys that trains to reload without bringing the weapon off target, so ANY time I come off my sights or my weapon comes off target, it goes on safe. Everyone acknowledges that consistency is king when shooting. I believe if you train to reload without putting it on safe, you're training a bad habit of breaking your sight picture while the gun is still on fire, and its more likely you'll do that at the wrong time like when the gun is still loaded. I typically agree that there are many ways to do something based on the situation, but this is not one of them. The only exception in my mind with this one is when the weapon can't go on safe because of the hammer, but the attempt is still made to do so. Plus, you're improving the safety of yourself and everyone around you, with a very small movement and a fraction of a second. There's no reason not to do it.
    I am a believer is being an ambidextrous shooter. However I despise ambi safes. CORRECT left hand manipulation of the safe is time consuming in relation to a reload if you want to look at it from that perspective.

    How do you do reloads in the prone or kneeling positions using cover? You bring the gun up into your "workspace"? I keep the gun oriented in the direction I am engaging, and the leave the firing position as built as possible, which means I can return to firing sooner. We can argue over the merits of standing in a field in the open and doing reloads for time, however those dont (hopefully) ever happen.

    If you are tracking a moving target in your sights, everytime your aiming point comes off the target, do you throw it back on safe?

    Do you leave your finger on the trigger or have a history of guns firing on their own? Do you muzzle friendlies often?
    "When the hour of crisis comes, remember that 40 selected men can shake the world." -- Yasotay

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by vmi-mo View Post
    I am a believer is being an ambidextrous shooter. However I despise ambi safes. CORRECT left hand manipulation of the safe is time consuming in relation to a reload if you want to look at it from that perspective.

    How do you do reloads in the prone or kneeling positions using cover? You bring the gun up into your "workspace"? I keep the gun oriented in the direction I am engaging, and the leave the firing position as built as possible, which means I can return to firing sooner. We can argue over the merits of standing in a field in the open and doing reloads for time, however those dont (hopefully) ever happen.

    If you are tracking a moving target in your sights, everytime your aiming point comes off the target, do you throw it back on safe?

    Do you leave your finger on the trigger or have a history of guns firing on their own? Do you muzzle friendlies often?
    I do almost zero lefty shooting, it’s one of the big things I need to start doing because I suck at it. That being said, we (Army) have M4A1s now so whether you hate it or not, ambi safeties are common and available.

    When kneeling, I reload the same as standing. Prone is harder, but it sounds like I do the same as you, maybe cant the gun a little bit. As far as moving targets, I don’t put it on safe if I lose my target briefly, assuming it is very brief.

    With all of those being said, the point is that I’m still connected to my sights if the gun is on fire. Non-dominant hand and awkward positions make it more important to put the weapon on safe, not less.


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  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by vmi-mo View Post
    Do you leave your finger on the trigger or have a history of guns firing on their own? Do you muzzle friendlies often?
    No, no, and no. But that doesn’t mean I’m going to completely disregard a manual safety because I don’t typically do any of that stuff.


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  6. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Wake27 View Post
    I do almost zero lefty shooting, it’s one of the big things I need to start doing because I suck at it. That being said, we (Army) have M4A1s now so whether you hate it or not, ambi safeties are common and available.

    When kneeling, I reload the same as standing. Prone is harder, but it sounds like I do the same as you, maybe cant the gun a little bit. As far as moving targets, I don’t put it on safe if I lose my target briefly, assuming it is very brief.

    With all of those being said, the point is that I’m still connected to my sights if the gun is on fire. Non-dominant hand and awkward positions make it more important to put the weapon on safe, not less.


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    So if you were in an engagement and reloading while kneeling around cover, you could orient yourself upright, pull the rifle off whatever structure you were on, and reload the rifle in the same manner you would as if you were standing?

    Define brief for me? Is it measured in time? A guy zig zagging in and around cars. exposure here...exposure there....What if its a bad guy scooting through a bunch of no shoots. Do you safe it and avert your muzzle every time you are about to cross a no shoot?

    My point in all this is the dogmatic approach of "always" being used to describe a technique. The totality of the circumstances and the situation must be taken into account when we do things. I think its funny, the guy this originated from in the civilian market, so avidly voices his distaste of dogmatic "must always do X range theatrics" but has bred a following of guys unable to think through problems and rely on a dogmatic approach.
    "When the hour of crisis comes, remember that 40 selected men can shake the world." -- Yasotay

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by vmi-mo View Post
    So if you were in an engagement and reloading while kneeling around cover, you could orient yourself upright, pull the rifle off whatever structure you were on, and reload the rifle in the same manner you would as if you were standing?

    Define brief for me? Is it measured in time? A guy zig zagging in and around cars. exposure here...exposure there....What if its a bad guy scooting through a bunch of no shoots. Do you safe it and avert your muzzle every time you are about to cross a no shoot?

    My point in all this is the dogmatic approach of "always" being used to describe a technique. The totality of the circumstances and the situation must be taken into account when we do things. I think its funny, the guy this originated from in the civilian market, so avidly voices his distaste of dogmatic "must always do X range theatrics" but has bred a following of guys unable to think through problems and rely on a dogmatic approach.
    Again, I already said this. I rarely advocate for something as always or never. But we’re talking about engaging the safety, not some complex tactical scenario. I don’t see it as something that requires critical thought and non-dogmatic approaches. It’s super simple - if you’re not aiming down your sights, keep the safety on.


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  8. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Wake27 View Post
    Again, I already said this. I rarely advocate for something as always or never. But we’re talking about engaging the safety, not some complex tactical scenario. I don’t see it as something that requires critical thought and non-dogmatic approaches. It’s super simple - if you’re not aiming down your sights, keep the safety on.


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    And if im reloading while looking down my sights.....which has happened far more than bolt lock in the open reloads...
    "When the hour of crisis comes, remember that 40 selected men can shake the world." -- Yasotay

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by vmi-mo View Post
    And if im reloading while looking down my sights.....which has happened far more than bolt lock in the open reloads...
    I’ve never actually met anyone that does that, so good for you I guess? Once again, I already covered that I don’t reload that way, which is part of the basis for my argument.


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  10. #20
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    I know this discussion was about personal thoughts, but this video is related and Pat Mac is super entertaining.


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