View Poll Results: Is it OK for your muzzle to dip after the trigger is pressed with a dummy round?

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  • Yes

    15 71.43%
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    6 28.57%
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Thread: Is post trigger push really a thing?

  1. #21
    Rabbit of Caerbannog JodyH's Avatar
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    Post ignition push on a "surprise" dry fire just means you were actively steering the pistol during the recoil portion of the shooting cycle.
    Whether that's good or bad depends on what you were trying to accomplish with the next shot up.
    Aggressive recovery can help with faster splits and especially with faster transitions but at the expense of accuracy because it's easy to "overswing" the sight alignment the faster you're trying to reacquire it.

    On drills like the "Triple Nickel" which is heavy on making fast splits and fast transitions on high percentage targets, active recovery/steering the pistol as soon as the front sight lifts out of the rear notch is advantageous.

    When trying to make a quick double headshot on a 25Y USPSA target, aggressive recovery can be detrimental because it's easy to "push" the front sight too low for the target size and you'll either miss the next shot if you press off the shot or you have to take more time to bring it back up into alignment. It's probably better to let the front sight settle on it's own.

    A true post ignition push doesn't cause any problems with the shot you just made, by the time you're pushing the bullet is long gone.

    Post ignition push can cause problems on the follow up shot in two ways. The first is if you're shooting faster than you can see (like an old school double tap) and you push the second shot low. The second is if the target size is small enough that an aggressive post push has you dip the front sight requiring you to catch it and bring it back up into alignment which takes time.

    Steering the pistol before the front sight lifts out of the rear notch = bad.
    Steering the pistol after the front sight lifts out of the rear notch = bad, neutral or good depending on what you want to do with the next shot.
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  2. #22
    Rabbit of Caerbannog JodyH's Avatar
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    If you want to see if you're actively steering (pushing) do an old school "double tap", two shots with one sight picture trying to beat your fastest split time ever on a really high percentage target.
    If your second shot is higher than the first you're going with the recoil.
    If your second shot is lower than the first you're steering the recoil.
    Last edited by JodyH; 02-11-2019 at 07:21 AM.
    Lot of desert out here.
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  3. #23
    Site Supporter jetfire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by P.E. Kelley View Post
    I feel that depends on what you think letting recoil happen means.

    As a Master Bullseye shooter (2600 Club Member) "letting recoil happen" in Slow fire means I do not try to have the gun
    return to the point of aim of the previous shot. The muzzle lifts and hangs there.
    In timed and rapid I put more control into the gun to have the sight return to the target center.

    I used the same (let the muzzle lift and hang) process in mastering handgun silhouette and Service rifle. Slow fire=slow recovery as ALL my emphasis was on a single perfect shot.

    In the speed games with must add more control into the gun (grip and the mental intent to return the gun to the desired impact point ASAP) and post ignition push is an additional element to let us break multiple shots accurately at speed.
    We pretty much could have just closed this thread after Pat's post, because he's spot on. If I'm on the range and I'm shooting a bill drill, and the gun goes click instead of bang on shot 4, you're going to see the muzzle dip because my brain and my body was keyed up to manage recoil and keep the gun tracking flat. If I'm shooting a slow fire group at 50 yards standing and the gun goes click instead of bang, you're not going to see anything happen because my brain and my body is set up to let the gun go off and just hang out after recoil happens.

    There are some people who say that you should shoot slow fire with the same recoil management as bill drills or whatever. I don't think that's necessary or appropriate so long as you're practicing both and managing the recoil in a way that's situationally appropriate.
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  4. #24
    Site Supporter Rapid Butterfly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JodyH View Post
    Post ignition push on a "surprise" dry fire just means you were actively steering the pistol during the recoil portion of the shooting cycle.
    Whether that's good or bad depends on what you were trying to accomplish with the next shot up.
    Aggressive recovery can help with faster splits and especially with faster transitions but at the expense of accuracy because it's easy to "overswing" the sight alignment the faster you're trying to reacquire it.

    On drills like the "Triple Nickel" which is heavy on making fast splits and fast transitions on high percentage targets, active recovery/steering the pistol as soon as the front sight lifts out of the rear notch is advantageous.

    When trying to make a quick double headshot on a 25Y USPSA target, aggressive recovery can be detrimental because it's easy to "push" the front sight too low for the target size and you'll either miss the next shot if you press off the shot or you have to take more time to bring it back up into alignment. It's probably better to let the front sight settle on it's own.

    A true post ignition push doesn't cause any problems with the shot you just made, by the time you're pushing the bullet is long gone.

    Post ignition push can cause problems on the follow up shot in two ways. The first is if you're shooting faster than you can see (like an old school double tap) and you push the second shot low. The second is if the target size is small enough that an aggressive post push has you dip the front sight requiring you to catch it and bring it back up into alignment which takes time.

    Steering the pistol before the front sight lifts out of the rear notch = bad.
    Steering the pistol after the front sight lifts out of the rear notch = bad, neutral or good depending on what you want to do with the next shot.
    I have just now started trying to add double taps to things I work on. Improvements are coming but I definitely see the second shot being lower than the first almost every time. What is a good way to fix this? Also you mentioned "old school double tap." Please forgive my lack of knowledge - I really am trying to learn and get better - are there other schools of double taps?
    audite semper, semper discendum
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  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by jetfire View Post
    We pretty much could have just closed this thread after Pat's post, because he's spot on. If I'm on the range and I'm shooting a bill drill, and the gun goes click instead of bang on shot 4, you're going to see the muzzle dip because my brain and my body was keyed up to manage recoil and keep the gun tracking flat. If I'm shooting a slow fire group at 50 yards standing and the gun goes click instead of bang, you're not going to see anything happen because my brain and my body is set up to let the gun go off and just hang out after recoil happens.

    There are some people who say that you should shoot slow fire with the same recoil management as bill drills or whatever. I don't think that's necessary or appropriate so long as you're practicing both and managing the recoil in a way that's situationally appropriate.
    Do you do post ignition push variably or with every shot? In other words, do you have one technique for Bill drills, another for shooting steel, another for two shots to paper and another for one shot targets?
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  6. #26
    Site Supporter jetfire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GJM View Post
    Do you do post ignition push variably or with every shot? In other words, do you have one technique for Bill drills, another for shooting steel, another for two shots to paper and another for one shot targets?
    Probably. Recoil control is situational based on what I'm doing with the gun right now and what I need to do with the gun next. I try to not waste time analyzing stuff that I'm already doing automatically.
    I shot the PX4 before it was cool.

  7. #27
    Rabbit of Caerbannog JodyH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rapid Butterfly View Post
    I have just now started trying to add double taps to things I work on. Improvements are coming but I definitely see the second shot being lower than the first almost every time. What is a good way to fix this? Also you mentioned "old school double tap." Please forgive my lack of knowledge - I really am trying to learn and get better - are there other schools of double taps?
    IMO "double taps" aren't really something worth working on as an independent skill.
    By "double tap" I mean two shots utilizing one sight picture.
    You're better off working on recognizing an acceptable sight picture for the target your trying to hit at a faster rate aka: "seeing faster" and a faster split with greater consistent accuracy will be the natural result.
    Lot of desert out here.
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  8. #28
    Site Supporter Clusterfrack's Avatar
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    From the Trigger Control thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Clusterfrack View Post
    You need to use your muscles to return the gun to the target after the first shot. This should happen after the first shot is fired and before the second one. So, there's some critical timing that has to happen. That gets tricky when you try to shoot fast splits, like in the doubles drill. As you're learning to do this, sometimes the timing is wrong and you fire after you push the gun down, or you fire before the gun returns. This isn't a flinch. It's part of the learning process. As you develop your grip, stance, and relaxation, the amount of force needed gets smaller, and it starts to feel like "just letting the recoil happen".

    Here's a quote from Hwansik: "Most pistols have a high bore axis. Mixing in physics, when we fire the gun, there will be an upward force created by the leverage related to the bore axis and the grip axis. If the operator doesn’t push the gun down, the gun will stop higher than the original spot after a shot."

    There's some really good info about this on the PSTG, but it's behind a paywall.
    https://www.practicalshootingtrainin...urement-drill/
    Last edited by Clusterfrack; 02-11-2019 at 11:41 AM.
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  9. #29
    Rabbit of Caerbannog JodyH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GJM View Post
    Do you do post ignition push variably or with every shot? In other words, do you have one technique for Bill drills, another for shooting steel, another for two shots to paper and another for one shot targets?
    I subconsciously adjust a lot of variables depending on the situation, everything from acceptable sight alignment to trigger press speed to recoil management.
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  10. #30
    Site Supporter Rapid Butterfly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JodyH View Post
    IMO "double taps" aren't really something worth working on as an independent skill.
    By "double tap" I mean two shots utilizing one sight picture.
    You're better off working on recognizing an acceptable sight picture for the target your trying to hit at a faster rate aka: "seeing faster" and a faster split with greater consistent accuracy will be the natural result.
    Thank you. i think the latter is, actually, what I'm doing - definitely not the two for one sight picture. I'm getting faster i just still see the second hitting lower than the first, like almost exactly straight down. I'll keep working; as i do i am seeing the distance the second shot is lower decreasing significantly.
    audite semper, semper discendum
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