Is post trigger push really a thing?

[0ddl0t]

So I've been reading a number of threads about the ball and dummy drill and I notice that a few seemingly reputable posters claim that it is OK for the gun to nose dive as long as it happens *after* the trigger is pulled. I've always been told you want to be able to balance a coin on the front sight when the firing pin falls on a dummy. Which is right?

[Jay Cunningham]

I was told a very similar thing a long time ago.

But the ability to press a trigger and balance a spent case or coin on the front sight is largely a parlor trick. How does this translate to practical pistol shooting?

Does this resemble anything like how we really use our guns?

I can (because I have) teach a soccer mom to do this within 10 minutes of introducing it. Does this mean she has perfect trigger control?

[BK14]

I’ve gotten in a lot of debates over this.... The ball and dummy is for trying to eliminate pre-ignition movement of the gun, as in anticipation which drives your shot low. Anticipation that messes up your shot is bad.

However, I fully believe, and there are plenty of reputable individuals (disclaimer, I’m not one of them) that will say that movement after the shot is 100% normal, and okay.

Scenario: I’m shooting a bill drill with guys from work around. I’m a moron and can’t count, so I only have 5 rounds in the gun, but since I override the slide stop on my Glocks half the time, my slide doesn’t lock back and on the 6th trigger press I get a click. So my a click occurs, then my muzzle dips, and the peanut gallery all laughs pointing out my muzzle dipping and how crappy of a shooter I am.

I’m of the opinion that you can repeat this same basic scenario as much as you want, and the muzzle will dip. If your hits are all good, then you know that the downward movement of the gun is post ignition, and post the barrel leaving the gun, which in my book is 100% okay, as long as you don’t do it before the shot breaks. I believe it’s a by-product of an explosion going off in your hands, and your body reacting. Plain and simple.

[HopetonBrown]

I can't remember where he said it, might have been a podcast, but Leatham said he will flinch each time on a ball and dummy drill, and that he's worked really hard for it. Because it's a post ignition push.

I think Bill Rogers says all ball and dummy drills do is show you that you flinch.

[GJM]

Bill Rogers does ball and dummy drills, loaded ball/dummy/ball/dummy, so you always know what is next.

[0ddl0t]

So how do you work on flinching without undoing more legitimate recoil compensation?

[scw2]

So how do you work on flinching without undoing more legitimate recoil compensation?

Dry fire helps. It won’t help with your recoil control which is going to come in live fire. If you’re pressing the trigger at a realistic force and speed in dry fire and you’re honest with yourself regarding the sights, flinching or any other imperfections causing misalignment of the gun should show itself. Also be sure not to cheat the grip.

[JodyH]

Do enough GoPro "shooters perspective" video analysis of yourself while shooting and you'll quickly see where you flinched and where you post push.
I rarely flinch but I almost always post push when I "dry fire" during a CoF (when I run dry and the slide goes forward for some reason, usually my thumb riding the lever and I press the trigger expecting a bang).
With hammer fired pistols it's super easy to recognize whether it was a flinch or a post push, with strikers you have to listen carefully and watch for other "tells".

[GJM]

TPC is a proponent of isolating the trigger, then letting recoil happen. A potential problem with post ignition push is when it happens during the trigger press.

The $64 dollar question is whether post ignition push offers any measurable benefit over just letting recoil happen?

[P.E. Kelley]

TPC is a proponent of isolating the trigger, then letting recoil happen. A potential problem with post ignition push is when it happens during the trigger press.

The $64 dollar question is whether post ignition push offers any measurable benefit over just letting recoil happen?

I feel that depends on what you think letting recoil happen means.

As a Master Bullseye shooter (2600 Club Member) "letting recoil happen" in Slow fire means I do not try to have the gun
return to the point of aim of the previous shot. The muzzle lifts and hangs there.
In timed and rapid I put more control into the gun to have the sight return to the target center.

I used the same (let the muzzle lift and hang) process in mastering handgun silhouette and Service rifle. Slow fire=slow recovery as ALL my emphasis was on a single perfect shot.

In the speed games with must add more control into the gun (grip and the mental intent to return the gun to the desired impact point ASAP) and post ignition push is an additional element to let us break multiple shots accurately at speed.