Learning about rifle quality

[Wake27]

**Side rant on middy vs carbine:

You can't just across the board say middy is better than carbine. It depends on port sizing, carrier weight, spring, and buffer weight. The whole thing is a balancing act. We have more data on some systems than others. However, it all starts with the gas port size. Too large a gas port is wrong whether it's carbine or middy. Right size gas port is right whether carbine or middy. Most manufacturers won't tell you what their gas port size is. Some don't even know.

As you said, the gas system depends on a lot of things being correct and they all have to be correct for either to work. In my post, the assumption is that everything is correct for both middy and carbine, so middy is better. A screwed up carbine is just as bad as a screwed up middy and and so on.

[okie john]

I wasn’t meaning to infer the 6920 was bottom of the barrel, just that it’s the bottom price-wise for a reliable AR rifle.

Roger that.

A more eloquent statement of my thoughts:

Boutique guns are useless to me. A lot of them actually do things that are detrimental to performance; in the name of better performance. If you get down the rabbit hole to the point where you understand what you're giving up and what you're potentially gaining, fine, roll on. However, don't go drop $2,500+ on a Noveske, KAC, etc 5.56 gun and assume that you're getting better quality than Colt.

Okie John

[MistWolf]

...the higher the dollar value goes, the more attention to detail in machining and design stands out.

Note that einherjarvalk said dollar value. All too often "premium" priced ARs are nothing more than a lower attached to an upper with a cool looking but mediocre quality free float tube.

...The Colt Trooper (6960 I think) steps it up with a LW barrel, middy gas system, and Centurion handguard...

You're thinking of the CCU. The Trooper is simply a 6920 (16" carbine gas barrel) with a Centurion handguard.

...if you wouldn't trust your life with your work, why should anyone else...

...By far my favorite brand of rifle to work on is Colt...Colt is the most consistently correct of all AR manufacturers I've encountered.

...You can't just across the board say middy is better than carbine. It depends on port sizing, carrier weight, spring, and buffer weight. The whole thing is a balancing act...it all starts with the gas port size. Too large a gas port is wrong whether it's carbine or middy. Right size gas port is right whether carbine or middy...

...Boutique guns are useless to me. A lot of them actually do things that are detrimental to performance; in the name of better performance. If you get down the rabbit hole to the point where you understand what you're giving up and what you're potentially gaining, fine, roll on...

Very important points from a guy who gets it.

Off Topic- ARs are not "direct impingement". They use a piston inside an expansion chamber (cylinder) and the piston stays inside the cylinder. The piston & cylinder are inside the carrier and in direct line with the bore and recoil, a detail that gives the AR a straight back recoil vector.

A direct impingement system uses gas directly from the gas tube to a cup on the outside the carrier. The gas tube acts as the cylinder and the cup as the piston and separate with the movement of the carrier. It's called "direct impingement" because the gas impinges directly on the carrier. It is off center from the bore and recoil impulse and adds an angled vector to the recoil impulse.

Stoner explains in the original patent that it's not a direct impingement system and why. Colt calls the AR gas system "direct gas".

[HCM]

Not too sure on armorer type books, some others who are armorers will probably comment. Kyle Lambs green eyes black rifles book is a pretty good read if you are newer to the rifles.


Some of my common thoughts and go to companies when it comes to rifles:

Uppers/ complete rifle sources to trust and rely on:
Colt
Geiselle
Centurion
BCM
Daniel Defense

there is no real reason to venture away from those 5 companies, knight armament is another good one but pricey.

Lowers and lower parts kits:
Same companies listed about for lower parts kits (especially geiselle and bcm, they seem to be the best priced and quality)
I really like Aero lowers for the cost and have had people I trust tell me they are good to go.
G&R tactical also has BCM complete lowers for really reasonable prices year round, can't go wrong there either.

Geissele is promising but don’t actually have publicly availible rifles yet. Centurion is promising but also just recently began selling complete guns.

DD are good guns but IMHO overpriced for what you get.


I would add the following to your list:

Sionics
Sons of Liberty Gun Works

There is nothing “magical” about either of these companies but they consistently produce good rifles - meaning good quality Components and proper assembly. IME they are on par with BCM.

[Paul Blackburn]

The Semper Paratus class is essentially what you describe. You have to come to class with a rifle. It's a full 2-day class, and you assemble and disassemble the complete gun multiple times under the guidance of a true SME. At the same time, there really is no replacement for experience.


On a completely separate note and more to the topic of this thread, I have some thoughts to share. Warning, some of this will go against popular and often regurgitated opinions:

BCM, Colt, DD, Centurion (new, but should be gtg given pedigree) are where I would look for a factory gun. That said, I use Colt absolutely everywhere I possibly can for parts, receivers, barrels, etc. In fact, I'd rather pay an armorer/AR shop (like ADCO) to modify a 6920 with my handguard/barrel/FSB preference than buy a factory BCM or DD. Obviously as an armorer I do my own work. That's one thing that Will stresses in class is that if you wouldn't trust your life with your work, why should anyone else. There are members of this board who run guns I've built and run them hard. It's not rocket surgery, but there are right ways to do things and wrong ways.

As I've posted before, I was employed as an armorer for one of the largest FFL/ranges in the Atlanta Metro. I've had the opportunity to turn wrenches on lots of guns from the very bottom of the barrel to top of the line. I've seen problems with boutique guns like Noveske, JP, and KAC and problems with garbage guns too. Personally I've seen problems with BCM and DD too. By far my favorite brand of rifle to work on is Colt. It's not because I'm a Colt fanboy. Colt's policies and attitude towards the consumer market for most of the last 18 years I've been involved with this stuff has been shitty. That's what gave place to DD, BCM and others in the first place.

That said, Colt is the most consistently correct of all AR manufacturers I've encountered.

**Side rant on middy vs carbine:

You can't just across the board say middy is better than carbine. It depends on port sizing, carrier weight, spring, and buffer weight. The whole thing is a balancing act. We have more data on some systems than others. However, it all starts with the gas port size. Too large a gas port is wrong whether it's carbine or middy. Right size gas port is right whether carbine or middy. Most manufacturers won't tell you what their gas port size is. Some don't even know.

Boutique guns are useless to me. A lot of them actually do things that are detrimental to performance; in the name of better performance. If you get down the rabbit hole to the point where you understand what you're giving up and what you're potentially gaining, fine, roll on. However, don't go drop $2,500+ on a Noveske, KAC, etc 5.56 gun and assume that you're getting better quality than Colt.

I used to live in Atlanta, what range are you referring too?

[ASH556]

I used to live in Atlanta, what range are you referring too?

Bullseye in Lawrenceville.

[Wake27]

You're thinking of the CCU. The Trooper is simply a 6920 (16" carbine gas barrel) with a Centurion handguard.

I knew something with that statement was wrong, thanks. On premium ARs - I’ve owned two factory Noveskes, one of which was my first gun. There’s a reason I skipped from BCM to KAC. You actually get extra features for the money with KAC, whereas most other “boutique” ARs are more aesthetics than anything (as was said). My Noveskes have let me down in a few ways, all while costing more. My BCMs never have. I agree on the point about DD as well, I’ve always thought they were a little overpriced. You get more for less with BCM. All that being said, I don’t have tons of time wrenching on or shooting dozens of ARs, I’m just super picky about what I use and spend money on so that’s where my opinions come from.


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[einherjarvalk]

Note that einherjarvalk said dollar value. All too often "premium" priced ARs are nothing more than a lower attached to an upper with a cool looking but mediocre quality free float tube.

Good catch, I wrote this late last night and probably should've elaborated. There's definitely a difference between price and value with ARs. My general rule of thumb is that if something AR-based is expensive and there aren't people who can immediately tell you how it's better than a milspec part and why it was designed that way, it's probably not worth the money. The reason I'm willing to shell out money for Forward Controls and Geissele parts is as simple as both manufacturers having enough respect for me as a consumer to sit down and say "here's what's usually done, here's what we did, and here's why we did it" down to the smallest details. such as the angle of a bolt release or the inclusion of a higher strength magazine release spring on an ambi catch. Seeking out this sort of info has given me a better eye and appreciation for good engineering in a lot of other realms too, so it's a good standard to have.

[einherjarvalk]

**Side rant on middy vs carbine:

You can't just across the board say middy is better than carbine. It depends on port sizing, carrier weight, spring, and buffer weight. The whole thing is a balancing act. We have more data on some systems than others. However, it all starts with the gas port size. Too large a gas port is wrong whether it's carbine or middy. Right size gas port is right whether carbine or middy. Most manufacturers won't tell you what their gas port size is. Some don't even know.

While far from comprehensive, I've found Black Rifle Haven's chart to be pretty useful. It seems to cover most of the barrel manufacturers one might actually give a shit about, including "exotics" such as Hodge and KAC.

https://sites.google.com/view/black-...ference-charts

[Paul Blackburn]

The Colt M4 is still the gold standard as far as the main components. Other brands manufacture or attempt to have their stuff manufactured up to the Colt milspec standards. Some have designed controls that are more ergonomic. But buying a Colt is a solid choice. Changing furniture and upgrading triggers is easy to do.