Dry Fire - Negative Effects?

[David S.]

[BehindBlueI's]

There's folks better suited then me already answering, so I'll just add this. It's easy to get sloppy with dry fire. Pay attention to your concentration level. Personally, if I dry fire more than 10 minutes or so I start just going through the motions because my concentration is faltering. I saw better results from multiple short sessions then one longer session.

I suspect the pros are the pros because of their concentration abilities. They have the mental capacity and conditioning to do the boring fundamentals without that mind wandering or "going through the motions". They are the Larry Bird and Tiger Woods of their sport. Amazing ability to focus on fundamentals for long periods of time of dedicated practice.

[gomerpyle]

What Stoeger does is a steroid enhanced version of what Vickers had been doing in his classes for some, I am sure Wayne will remember the correct name of those drills, one was timed, another command.

The answer is yes.[/FONT]

@YVK, would you be able to offer details on the trigger control dryfire drills that Stoeger and Vickers do in their classes?

[Alpha Sierra]

@YVK, would you be able to offer details on the trigger control dryfire drills that Stoeger and Vickers do in their classes?

I'm pretty sure Stoeger teaches what's in his books, plus his personal coaching (which is worth A LOT). But just to see the kind of drills he teaches I'd pick up one of his books.

I think @GuanoLoco has been to Stoeger's class

[spinmove_]

Ten years ago I would have agreed with what you are saying a hundred percent. Now I believe a few questions are in order.

1. How does one know what is an acceptable sight movement when there is no bullet for confirmation?

2. Can other people do it the same as you?

Can an older retiree who shoots 1200 rounds a year keep doing it? For this retiree I assure you I cannot. I suspect it was a negative the whole time I was doing it but just didn't notice. If I were to do it over again I would never pull the trigger quickly during dry fire. I would only do a few slow presses.

3. Does the ratio of live to dry fire change that ability? Can you get sloppy over time between live fire?

4. Does a person's ability change the answer?

As a retiree I can no longer do what I used to be able to do with a pistol when I was shooting between 12-20K dedicated rounds a year. Dry fire trigger work is just one of many things I had to change.

1.) That depends entirely upon your gun, the target zone size, and the simulated distance for your target. In live fire, you would set a target at a known distance and then put your front sight above your rear sight, below your rear sight, just to the right of your rear sight, and just to the left of your rear sight. At each of those sight placements you would do one shot to see where your shot lands. Mark where on the target that is. Do it all over again only put the front sight not as far out as you had previously until all of your shots end up in the A zone of your target. You now know your “acceptable shot zone” for your given distance at your given target size. Adjust this zone according to how tight the zone is and/or how far away your target is. Now in dryfire you have an idea as to how much zone you have to play with. You obviously want a 100% perfect hit every time, but you don’t always have to time to guarantee that hit.

2.) As long as you’re honest with yourself on if your dryfire shot was good or not, yes, you can do the same as I. Focus, be honest with yourself, and be mindful of what is actually acceptable.

3.) Can you get sloppy? Of course. Do you want to get sloppy? Absolutely not. Don’t get sloppy. If you feel yourself getting sloppy, stop and take a break. You don’t have to do this for 60 minutes straight. Do what works for you. The second you start getting sloppy is the second your practice begins hurting you. You can go extended periods of no live fire. You must be honest with yourself and not get sloppy.

4.) Depends upon what one’s ability allows or does not allow that person to do. If you can’t dryfire for extended periods of time then don’t. Do whatever time you can, but make it count.

I don’t always get to spend 30-60 minutes every day dryfiring everything I need to dryfire. Sometimes I only get 5 minutes of trigger pressing and transitions. Some days I get nothing. But whatever time I do actually get I make the absolute most out of every session because if I don’t then I’m practicing it wrong. Whatever I practice wrong, I hurt myself because I’ll get sloppy or have poor technique or learn the wrong way.


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[JustOneGun]

1.) That depends entirely upon your gun, the target zone size, and the simulated distance for your target. In live fire, you would set a target at a known distance and then put your front sight above your rear sight, below your rear sight, just to the right of your rear sight, and just to the left of your rear sight. At each of those sight placements you would do one shot to see where your shot lands. Mark where on the target that is. Do it all over again only put the front sight not as far out as you had previously until all of your shots end up in the A zone of your target. You now know your “acceptable shot zone” for your given distance at your given target size. Adjust this zone according to how tight the zone is and/or how far away your target is. Now in dryfire you have an idea as to how much zone you have to play with. You obviously want a 100% perfect hit every time, but you don’t always have to time to guarantee that hit.

2.) As long as you’re honest with yourself on if your dryfire shot was good or not, yes, you can do the same as I. Focus, be honest with yourself, and be mindful of what is actually acceptable.

3.) Can you get sloppy? Of course. Do you want to get sloppy? Absolutely not. Don’t get sloppy. If you feel yourself getting sloppy, stop and take a break. You don’t have to do this for 60 minutes straight. Do what works for you. The second you start getting sloppy is the second your practice begins hurting you. You can go extended periods of no live fire. You must be honest with yourself and not get sloppy.

4.) Depends upon what one’s ability allows or does not allow that person to do. If you can’t dryfire for extended periods of time then don’t. Do whatever time you can, but make it count.

I don’t always get to spend 30-60 minutes every day dryfiring everything I need to dryfire. Sometimes I only get 5 minutes of trigger pressing and transitions. Some days I get nothing. But whatever time I do actually get I make the absolute most out of every session because if I don’t then I’m practicing it wrong. Whatever I practice wrong, I hurt myself because I’ll get sloppy or have poor technique or learn the wrong way.



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So if I haven't learned to read my sights and call my shots, would it be harder to, "know" if I'm doing it correctly? What if I think I know what that looks like but am actually getting sloppy without even knowing it. While making fun of derp and people with severe cases of DK we forget that all humans have it. That includes you and I. We just try to minimize it. At that point could I be doing some harm to my ability to press the trigger?

Could I still do a dry fire routine and get a positive result without pressing the trigger at speed? Could I chose not to press at speed until I develop the skill to call my shots?

The reason I feel this is important to talk about is the old hero worship. I do this because, celebrity X does it. As an old retiree nobody I would humbly suggest this, "Just because X can do it doesn't mean you should do it." Sometimes the road we take to become good shooters has a lot of twists in it. Some of those twists are due to poor instruction, inefficiencies and personal failures.

I've come to believe that a more efficient road to being a great shooter is one third hard work, one third learning to cut out the useless practice and one third knowing WHY we do what we do to avoid introducing negatives into our training. Some of the things we do during early training is just dumb and a waste of time. Sometimes we are still doing those things. Sometimes the things we do actually have a negative effect and actually slows down our progress. We succeed sometimes in spite of this, not because of it.

We could say the same thing about teaching students. Just because someone is a tier 1 face shooter or an national champion doesn't mean they know shite about teaching people. They may have spent the last 20 years learning to shoot and thought 10 minutes about how to explain how they learned to shoot. I learned this lesson when a nationally recognized tier 1 badass kept pointing his M4 at me while teaching reloading with live ammo. Yep, I left and put a brick wall between him and I. As an instructor he was an unsafe idiot. He had not put in his stripes as an instructor.

[spinmove_]

So if I haven't learned to read my sights and call my shots, would it be harder to, "know" if I'm doing it correctly? What if I think I know what that looks like but am actually getting sloppy without even knowing it. While making fun of derp and people with severe cases of DK we forget that all humans have it. That includes you and I. We just try to minimize it. At that point could I be doing some harm to my ability to press the trigger?

Could I still do a dry fire routine and get a positive result without pressing the trigger at speed? Could I chose not to press at speed until I develop the skill to call my shots?

The reason I feel this is important to talk about is the old hero worship. I do this because, celebrity X does it. As an old retiree nobody I would humbly suggest this, "Just because X can do it doesn't mean you should do it." Sometimes the road we take to become good shooters has a lot of twists in it. Some of those twists are due to poor instruction, inefficiencies and personal failures.

I've come to believe that a more efficient road to being a great shooter is one third hard work, one third learning to cut out the useless practice and one third knowing WHY we do what we do to avoid introducing negatives into our training. Some of the things we do during early training is just dumb and a waste of time. Sometimes we are still doing those things. Sometimes the things we do actually have a negative effect and actually slows down our progress. We succeed sometimes in spite of this, not because of it.

We could say the same thing about teaching students. Just because someone is a tier 1 face shooter or an national champion doesn't mean they know shite about teaching people. They may have spent the last 20 years learning to shoot and thought 10 minutes about how to explain how they learned to shoot. I learned this lesson when a nationally recognized tier 1 badass kept pointing his M4 at me while teaching reloading with live ammo. Yep, I left and put a brick wall between him and I. As an instructor he was an unsafe idiot. He had not put in his stripes as an instructor.

If you haven’t done the work to read your sights on your gun at least to a few various distances, then yes, you’re doing yourself a huge disservice as you wouldn’t know what is and is not actually an acceptable sight picture. Without knowing that how could you press the trigger at speed in dryfire for an acceptable shot?

Without that knowledge you could get A LOT out of your dryfire routine still (especially if you had a timer) without pressing the trigger even once.

Figuring out your gun’s POI doing what I described above shouldn’t take more than a 50 round box or two of ammo at around at least two or three distances (like say 5yds, 10yds, 25yds). Given your ammo budget for the year vs how valuable that information is, I’d say it’s totally worth it.

I’m not sure where the “hero worship” piece comes into play here. This is stuff I’m recommending personally based on what I’ve personally put into practice and done and then seen the gains I’ve personally seen. If this doesn’t work for you, maybe someone else has a better method or technique. I simply am offering to you what I’ve found to work for me free of charge. Do with it what you will, I only hope it helps you in some positive way. What I’m suggesting isn’t rocket science nor is it anything new.


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[Alpha Sierra]

So if I haven't learned to read my sights and call my shots, would it be harder to, "know" if I'm doing it correctly? What if I think I know what that looks like but am actually getting sloppy without even knowing it. While making fun of derp and people with severe cases of DK we forget that all humans have it. That includes you and I. We just try to minimize it. At that point could I be doing some harm to my ability to press the trigger?

Could I still do a dry fire routine and get a positive result without pressing the trigger at speed? Could I chose not to press at speed until I develop the skill to call my shots?

The reason I feel this is important to talk about is the old hero worship. I do this because, celebrity X does it. As an old retiree nobody I would humbly suggest this, "Just because X can do it doesn't mean you should do it." Sometimes the road we take to become good shooters has a lot of twists in it. Some of those twists are due to poor instruction, inefficiencies and personal failures.

I've come to believe that a more efficient road to being a great shooter is one third hard work, one third learning to cut out the useless practice and one third knowing WHY we do what we do to avoid introducing negatives into our training. Some of the things we do during early training is just dumb and a waste of time. Sometimes we are still doing those things. Sometimes the things we do actually have a negative effect and actually slows down our progress. We succeed sometimes in spite of this, not because of it.

We could say the same thing about teaching students. Just because someone is a tier 1 face shooter or an national champion doesn't mean they know shite about teaching people. They may have spent the last 20 years learning to shoot and thought 10 minutes about how to explain how they learned to shoot. I learned this lesson when a nationally recognized tier 1 badass kept pointing his M4 at me while teaching reloading with live ammo. Yep, I left and put a brick wall between him and I. As an instructor he was an unsafe idiot. He had not put in his stripes as an instructor.

Do you want to learn or argue?

If you want to learn, buy, read, and practice what's in this book: https://benstoegerproshop.com/dryfir...caled-targets/

If you want to argue, I ain't your guy.

[JustOneGun]

Do you want to learn or argue?

If you want to learn, buy, read, and practice what's in this book: https://benstoegerproshop.com/dryfir...caled-targets/

If you want to argue, I ain't your guy.

What do you say? Been there done that. Talking about this stuff isn't for you or me. It's for those inexperienced that find PF to think about stuff. It's not an argument. It's just putting a little thought into a problem. Depending on where a person is in their development buying Ben's book could help them or totally screw them up. Or perhaps they buy a different champion's book that says the opposite?

So I'm not needing to learn much about dry fire. Been doing it for decades. But new people? Maybe it's helpful to put a little thought into it.

[Alpha Sierra]

What do you say? Been there done that. Talking about this stuff isn't for you or me. It's for those inexperienced that find PF to think about stuff. It's not an argument. It's just putting a little thought into a problem. Depending on where a person is in their development buying Ben's book could help them or totally screw them up. Or perhaps they buy a different champion's book that says the opposite?

So I'm not needing to learn much about dry fire. Been doing it for decades. But new people? Maybe it's helpful to put a little thought into it.

Your point of view on the subject of dryfire is diametrically opposed to that of the majority of people who use it to train and are miles better than both of us.

You've dismissed every single rebuttal made against your preconceived notion that dry fire while manipulating the trigger does nothing positive.

What that tells me is that you don't want an open minded discussion, but to tells us what it is.