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Thread: Dry Fire - Negative Effects?

  1. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by GJM View Post
    I press the trigger all the time dry firing, just not on the clock when there is a tendency to short change trigger presses to make a time.
    We can discuss next time I am in a good signal reception area. Trigger control can be worked out in dry fire. What Stoeger does is a steroid enhanced version of what Vickers had been doing in his classes for some, I am sure Wayne will remember the correct name of those drills, one was timed, another command. I've done some of that recently, it is very difficult for me. Recreating the honest amount of tension and force is the hardest part.

    Quote Originally Posted by Port View Post
    Does dry firing have any negative effects? Or did I just have a bad day?


    The answer is yes.
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  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Port View Post
    What do you think? Does dry firing have any negative effects?
    I think that would depend significantly on how one dry fires.

    I am always reminded in these discussions of the Rhodesian IPSC team, during a period of time when availability of ammunition was pretty much nil there. Preparing for the world championships, the team had an ammunition budget of a few hundred rounds per shooter per year. Obviously, a huge amount of training had to be done dry. The Rhodesian shooters did not win that year, but according to what I've read they did not do especially poorly, either.

    Another example that pops to mind is the japanese gentleman who used to compete in USPSA. He lived in Japan so had no access to actual firearms for 11 months of the year. He spent a month per year in the US, live fire training for a few weeks before taking part in a big competition. Again, didn't win but by no means did too poorly, either.

    Rather than stating that a certain amount of dry fire is "bad", a more important metric is the quality of the dry practice done. The more quality practice, either dry or live fire, one can do, the better. But sloppily practicing bad techniques is always bad, regardless of whether you spend live rounds to do so or not.

  3. #13
    Member JHC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Port View Post
    Backwards! Everything was backwards today. Shooting, my Glock 42, 43, and 48, I wasn’t doing very well shooting bullseye. Like at all. I got flustered and decided to do shoot Mozambique’s and mag dumps to elevate the stress. What the heck?! Those were all on target!! Beautifully on target. And I shot my 42 (.380) the best to boot! What the...

    I honestly think I’ve been dry firing so much with my 9’s, that I went into my session today holding the firearms way to loosely. I have one of those LaserLytes that I’ve been practicing with quite religiously here lately. I think it’s made me forget to hold on tight.

    What do you think? Does dry firing have any negative effects? Or did I just have a bad day?

    Great advice offered to me for dry fire was "Don't cheat the grip!!!" Sounds like in live fire you gripped looser as you may have been dry firing.
    “Remember, being healthy is basically just dying as slowly as possible,” Ricky Gervais

  4. #14
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    Dry firing has negative effects if you don’t do it correctly. Grip, trigger control, and sight management are all very possible if dry fire is done properly. Along with that reloads, transitions, movement, and other skills can very much be done dry.

    I don’t have GJM’s ammo budget nor do I have an uber awesome reloading setup that’s automated. So, for me especially, live fire is the CONFIRMATION that what I’m doing in dryfire is actually correct. If my live fire sessions start going south I know I’m doing something incorrectly in dryfire.

    Based on what you said it sounds like you’re cheating the crap out of your grip. Grip the gun in dryfire the same that you do in live fire. Also, use the same amount of force on the trigger in dryfire that you do in live fire. Yes, your hands are probably going to hurt more. No, your sights will not remain perfectly still. These are signs that you’re probably doing things correctly or at least more correct and you can learn from there.

    Getting training is rarely a bad idea.


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  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by JHC View Post
    Great advice offered to me for dry fire was "Don't cheat the grip!!!" Sounds like in live fire you gripped looser as you may have been dry firing.
    There are three times that I advocate holding the gun tight, very tight.
    1) When firing the gun
    2) When dry-firing
    3) When in a ready position

    If you are dry firing with a "don't knock the dime off of the front sight" grip (loose), you are training yourself to hold the gun with a loose grip. That is negative training.

    If you are working trigger presses dry you should be smoked in about 5-7 min because holding the gun with firing grip tension is fatiguing. It doesn't sound like too much dry fire, it sounds like inappropriate dry fire to me.
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  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha Sierra View Post
    I think I understand a little better. Yep, it's easy to blow a good trigger press if the focus is 100% on making the par. But the thing that makes dry fire worthwhile is the self discipline to not blow a good trigger press (or any other aspect of good technique) just to make par.

    I think that's what makes dry fire so difficult to do correctly and so frustratingly satisfying.

    I found without the feed back of the bullet a timed trigger press during dry fire lied to me. I always had to be careful so that dry fire didn't actually become a negative for my trigger press. Maybe that's the self discipline part? But shooting two or three times a week seemed to keep me from seeing it as a negative on my times vs accuracy. When I retired and found a huge bucket list of fun, I stopped shooting nearly as much. What was something to look out for became something that really screwed up my ability. I no longer press the trigger under time during dry fire.

    I suppose it just depends on how much one shoots vs dry fire, our individual talents and how we structure our training.
    What you do right before you know you're going to be in a use of force incident, often determines the outcome of that use of force.

  7. #17
    Member John Hearne's Avatar
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    For me, the dry fire has two advantages. First, it takes a large volume of work to develop the motor skills to run the gun at speed. Whether it's draw strokes, or reloads, or malfunctions, building the skills to automaticity takes a lot of work, just volume wise as someone with less kinesthetic intelligence. Second, when it comes to trigger, you MUST call the shot anytime the striker or hammer falls. The largely unrecognized benefit of dry practice is that you can learn to call your shots without recoil. Recoil can hide nasty sight movement at the end of a press but dry practice will reveal it.

    As already noted, you must maintain a strong firing grip when you dry practice. I figured that out real quick after a huge volume of work for Gabe's class and my subsequent poor initial recoil control.

    I have also found some value in the laser based dry practice apps. I have been using the Laserhit app since August/September and continue to find it useful. You have to use their targets but the app will give you a time and call the shot for you. You can "fire" a round and call it based on the sights and then have confirmation from the app.

    Finally, not trying to be an ass, but there are a ton of world class competition shooters and face shooters who swear dry practice made all of the difference for them. If it isn't working, you're probably doing something wrong.
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  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Hearne View Post
    but there are a ton of world class competition shooters and face shooters who swear dry practice made all of the difference for them. If it isn't working, you're probably doing something wrong.
    That's where I am.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by JustOneGun View Post
    I found without the feed back of the bullet a timed trigger press during dry fire lied to me. I always had to be careful so that dry fire didn't actually become a negative for my trigger press. Maybe that's the self discipline part? But shooting two or three times a week seemed to keep me from seeing it as a negative on my times vs accuracy. When I retired and found a huge bucket list of fun, I stopped shooting nearly as much. What was something to look out for became something that really screwed up my ability. I no longer press the trigger under time during dry fire.

    I suppose it just depends on how much one shoots vs dry fire, our individual talents and how we structure our training.
    I think that boils down to how HONEST you are when you’re gripping, pressing the trigger, and managing the sights realistically in dryfire. No you’re not going to have the recoil that you normally would, but you can actually see what the sights are doing when you’re gripping and pressing the trigger like you are expecting the recoil to happen.

    Unless you are a human vice or you’re doing something to the gun to keep the sights PERFECTLY still during dryfire then your sights will absolutely be moving to some degree every time you press that trigger. The goal is to keep those presses in the realm of an “acceptable shot” for “the shot you’re trying to make”. If the front sight is leaving the notch when you press the trigger or the shot would go into the “wide C zone or D zone” on the target when you’re pressing the trigger, then you need to fix that. If it’s just moving a tiny bit and the shot would be an A zone hit or “close C zone” then you’re probably making good presses.

    That being said, your dryfire needs to be balanced and include skills and handling of other things apart from pressing the trigger. Reloads, transitions, and movement can all be done appropriately without pressing the trigger.


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  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by spinmove_ View Post
    I think that boils down to how HONEST you are when you’re gripping, pressing the trigger, and managing the sights realistically in dryfire. No you’re not going to have the recoil that you normally would, but you can actually see what the sights are doing when you’re gripping and pressing the trigger like you are expecting the recoil to happen.

    Unless you are a human vice or you’re doing something to the gun to keep the sights PERFECTLY still during dryfire then your sights will absolutely be moving to some degree every time you press that trigger. The goal is to keep those presses in the realm of an “acceptable shot” for “the shot you’re trying to make”. If the front sight is leaving the notch when you press the trigger or the shot would go into the “wide C zone or D zone” on the target when you’re pressing the trigger, then you need to fix that. If it’s just moving a tiny bit and the shot would be an A zone hit or “close C zone” then you’re probably making good presses.

    That being said, your dryfire needs to be balanced and include skills and handling of other things apart from pressing the trigger. Reloads, transitions, and movement can all be done appropriately without pressing the trigger.


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    Ten years ago I would have agreed with what you are saying a hundred percent. Now I believe a few questions are in order.

    1. How does one know what is an acceptable sight movement when there is no bullet for confirmation?

    2. Can other people do it the same as you?

    Can an older retiree who shoots 1200 rounds a year keep doing it? For this retiree I assure you I cannot. I suspect it was a negative the whole time I was doing it but just didn't notice. If I were to do it over again I would never pull the trigger quickly during dry fire. I would only do a few slow presses.

    3. Does the ratio of live to dry fire change that ability? Can you get sloppy over time between live fire?

    4. Does a person's ability change the answer?

    As a retiree I can no longer do what I used to be able to do with a pistol when I was shooting between 12-20K dedicated rounds a year. Dry fire trigger work is just one of many things I had to change.
    What you do right before you know you're going to be in a use of force incident, often determines the outcome of that use of force.

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