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Thread: Accountability for Missed shots in LE Qualifications

  1. #11
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    Any shots that miss the silhouette not only get docked the points for that round (10 points) but an extra ten point penalty is added. In the daylight rifle qual all rounds need to be in the 10 ring at 50 yards. Anything outside of that is an immediate fail. On night quals or inside of 25 yards for the rifle rounds off the silhouette are also given the extra ten point penalty.

  2. #12
    Seriously, how many cops would fail a qualification if we failed them with a missed shot? Talk about being short staffed!

    Not arguing against it...I think it’s a good thing...but my admin would never go for it.

  3. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by KeeFus View Post
    Seriously, how many cops would fail a qualification if we failed them with a missed shot? Talk about being short staffed!

    Not arguing against it...I think it’s a good thing...but my admin would never go for it.
    When Ohio was developing the qual course that goes with the above target, there was a lot of push back from the sheriff's association, other administrations, and a "and a large state agency" my source would not name. Apparently, the state agency was worried about their senior staff not being able to pass and the others were concerned about grievances and suits from officers if they tried to separate them for failure to qualify. The first version of that target had smaller scoring areas and the time limits on the original version of the course we're tighter.

  4. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by BobM View Post
    When Ohio was developing the qual course that goes with the above target, there was a lot of push back from the sheriff's association, other administrations, and a "and a large state agency" my source would not name. Apparently, the state agency was worried about their senior staff not being able to pass and the others were concerned about grievances and suits from officers if they tried to separate them for failure to qualify. The first version of that target had smaller scoring areas and the time limits on the original version of the course we're tighter.
    I like the idea of failing someone for missed rounds. That said, there would be so many LEOs sidelined it would create a crisis. Our minimum quail score is 80...on a TQ21 with 50 rounds. 10 misses x 2 points per round = 80. Keep in mind a TQ21 is just a silhouette target. One (1) scoring ring...the entire silhouette. I cannot fathom missing a target that freaking big but yet I have to count misses...and retrain them if they score below 80. I’d venture to say that if we failed people for misses I would sideline 50% of my officers. Not that they haven’t been afforded open range days throughout the year...but, as has been mentioned on this forum countless times, most cops aren’t gun people.

    I mentioned our agency minimum on qualifications is 80%. The State minimum is 70%. I have watched officers from many agencies either fail or come close to failing with the 70% minimum. If the State of NC came out and said “misses mean you fail qualifications”, they would sideline at least 50% of the sworn LE in this State.

    Again, I like the idea of it I just don’t think it would happen, at least not in NC.

    ETA: unless I totally misread the linked PDF earlier, they only qualify out to 50 feet (16.6 yards)?
    Last edited by KeeFus; 02-02-2019 at 07:46 AM.

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Hearne View Post
    I've heard, but can't confirm, that the U.S. Secret Service scores any hit off of the silhouette as a fail.
    I’d be super surprised. I think that’s all I’ll say in a public venue.
    "Are you ready? Okay. Let's roll."- Last words of Todd Beamer

  6. #16
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    Jul 2014
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    Various spots in Arizona
    Not to be a Debbie Downer but, one problem instructors have with trying to make things better in Arizona(and many other states) is the difference between AZPOST and Agency policy. Having two different standards is a real legal problem for administrators.

    The big question from administrators often is, what do you intend to do with this new qualification? A great way that I think works is to identify those officers that fail your tougher standard and then to remediate them. But ultimately administrators will not want to fire someone who is passing the easier state qualification. Sadly, even the dumbest cops quickly understand this and the lowest common denominator wins out.

    One of the biggest standards that I believe works is to hit the officer in the pocket book. Linking passing the qualification to eligibility for off duty work and special assignment for the year is a great motivator. The only real challenge is to get the department to sign off on more bullets for the training and have enough instructors to train them. IMO, that is the real deal killer. Time and money. One step forward, two steps back...
    What you do right before you know you're going to be in a use of force incident, often determines the outcome of that use of force.

  7. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by JustOneGun View Post
    Not to be a Debbie Downer but, one problem instructors have with trying to make things better in Arizona(and many other states) is the difference between AZPOST and Agency policy. Having two different standards is a real legal problem for administrators.

    The big question from administrators often is, what do you intend to do with this new qualification? A great way that I think works is to identify those officers that fail your tougher standard and then to remediate them. But ultimately administrators will not want to fire someone who is passing the easier state qualification. Sadly, even the dumbest cops quickly understand this and the lowest common denominator wins out.

    One of the biggest standards that I believe works is to hit the officer in the pocket book. Linking passing the qualification to eligibility for off duty work and special assignment for the year is a great motivator. The only real challenge is to get the department to sign off on more bullets for the training and have enough instructors to train them. IMO, that is the real deal killer. Time and money. One step forward, two steps back...
    Agreed.

    Here the State allows for us to raise the standard. When we have an officer fail the first course of fire they get two more tries that same day. If they fail, by State Admin Code, we are required to pull their credentials. No gun, no badge, no car...they can’t work. We remediate them the next day and again have them attempt qualification...and again, if they fail the process starts all over again. That can go on for as long as the Chief will allow. At some point they either pass or they are terminated.

  8. #18
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    Western Ohio
    Quote Originally Posted by KeeFus View Post
    If the State of NC came out and said “misses mean you fail qualifications”, they would sideline at least 50% of the sworn LE in this State.
    Or send them out on the street unarmed.

  9. #19

    Union input

    As a retired LE/FI, I’m all for higher standards in pistol qualification. But, I also was a union steward in the agency. You going to start penalizing my fellow troops for not making the standard ? Then, from a union perspective, I want more time “on the clock” for pistol practice/extra ammo/individual instruction from an instructor. Don’t demand my people to meet a higher standard and them tell them to practice on “their off duty time and at their own expense”.

  10. #20
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    Jul 2014
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    Various spots in Arizona
    Quote Originally Posted by KeeFus View Post
    Agreed.

    Here the State allows for us to raise the standard. When we have an officer fail the first course of fire they get two more tries that same day. If they fail, by State Admin Code, we are required to pull their credentials. No gun, no badge, no car...they can’t work. We remediate them the next day and again have them attempt qualification...and again, if they fail the process starts all over again. That can go on for as long as the Chief will allow. At some point they either pass or they are terminated.

    We had a similar policy. But in all my years I never saw anyone terminated. I also never saw any put on a work improvement program. If they were willing we would work with them, even on the weekend. But often they knew the score and we would see them the following year. They would once again test until they passed.

    We also had failed officers calling their chain of command and with all the complaining they would be allowed to drive their marked car back to the station. Reason, the CoC didn't want to drive out and give them a ride. Pure lazy.
    What you do right before you know you're going to be in a use of force incident, often determines the outcome of that use of force.

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