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Thread: PCC vs CO vs Open pistol (times)

  1. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by taadski View Post
    Some additional data points from last year...

    Area 1 First PCC was 90% of open winner
    Area 3 First PCC was 87% of open winner
    Area 4 First PCC was 88% of open winner
    Area 6 First PCC was 91% of open winner
    Area 7 First PCC was 87% of open winner
    Area 8 First PCC was 78% of open winner

    Similar trend in State championship matches in 2018 and in the 2019 Florida State match that was held this month. FWIW.
    Was Leograndis at any of those matches?
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  2. #12
    Site Supporter taadski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GJM View Post
    Was Leograndis at any of those matches?

    No, I don't think so. And neither were the other Max or Grauffel.

    But represented are the top talent in the respective divisions being discussed across EVERY OTHER AREA MATCH LAST YEAR. Seems telling. FWIW, I think Leograndis is so good he's a bit of an outlier. In the same way Michel is.

    Anyway, just some additional data.

  3. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by taadski View Post
    No, I don't think so. And neither were the other Max or Grauffel.

    But represented are the top talent in the respective divisions being discussed across EVERY OTHER AREA MATCH LAST YEAR. Seems telling. FWIW, I think Leograndis is so good he's a bit of an outlier. In the same way Michel is.

    Anyway, just some additional data.
    I assume the best shooters in PCC and Open were at Optics Nationals in 2018, and 3 of the top 7 there were PCC, finishing 2,5 and 7th overall. I do think that Open has a slight advantage, but it is very much stage design dependent. Another factor is there were 46 Open GM’s and only 20 PCC GM’s at Nationals, so the PCC guys did especially well given they were half as many GM’s competing as Open. Further, if the best Open shooters instead competed in PCC, I bet the numbers would go even more towards PCC, especially given how new PCC is.
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  4. #14
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    Thank you all for the replies and data! That is exactly what I was looking for.

    I would have guessed the carbine would have offered more of an advantage that the scores reflect!

  5. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by strow View Post
    Thank you all for the replies and data! That is exactly what I was looking for.

    I would have guessed the carbine would have offered more of an advantage that the scores reflect!
    At the lower classifications, I think the carbine does offer a significant advantage, because the carbine does not require a good draw, good reload, recoil control, and the same trigger control as with a pistol. The very best shooters possess all those skills but many in lower classifications do not. In terms of overall, I think PCC is worth 20-30 percent higher in overall placement than for the same shooter in Limited.
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  6. #16
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    I would posit that Max L is an anomaly and not representative of the skill level of a typical PCC shooter at the M/GM level (note the amount of 100% classifications achieved on the short hisstory of PCC: https://uspsa.org/top20). Max L was still almost 7% behind JJ, which is a pretty substantial gap for a nationals, albeit still a great performance. Other PCC shooters in the top 20 like, Todd J, Naim S etc are already multi division GMs, so not quite typical of the PCC field either. If the question is whether a person who is already a GM in a pistol division, (exuding anomalies like Max L - who is also a PROD GM) switches over to PCC, how would match scores compare?, that would be interesting to explore. I would guess that a pistol GM could adapt pretty quickly to a rifle; conversely, I doubt most PCC-only GM/Ms could perform at the same level with a pistol. Not to make this a tangential thread, but as a general rule, Open GMs will probably continue to dominate USPSA in most circumstances. I think the 2018 Area 6 is pretty representative of this thesis (Max L or Lena M weren't there): https://practiscore.com/results/new/54465. The only PCC shooter in the top 10 was an M class (Shannon Smith/7-division GM and 94.6 in PCC), the other PCC-only GMs came in at around 78-77% and behind the top 2 CO and 2 production shooters. To be clear, I am not anti-PCC, even if they are a pain to RO with their super-quiet guns that only register on shot timers set to airsoft sensitivity .

  7. #17
    Seems like there are two different questions going here:

    1) how does PCC stack up against Open, when the competitors have equal skill.

    and

    2) what is the skill level of the typical Open GM compared to the skill level of the typical PCC GM.

    On question 1, as I have said previously, I think it is very stage dependent. To test this, you would have to take some shooters equally skilled in Open and PCC, and run a bunch of stages to compare their results. JJ told me that he, Eric G and Max Michel made an agreement to not shoot PCC, so it would probably have to be Todd Jarrett.

    On question 2, I think on average, an Open GM possesses much higher skill than a PCC GM. Until 2018*, PCC used the same classifiers as Open, and certain classifiers were much easier with a carbine than a pistol, and vice versa. Depending upon the particular classifier, someone with less developed pistol skills could shoot high classifiers in PCC. Interestingly, until recently Carry Optics was the opposite, and it was almost impossible to move up. For the longest time, there was no “top 20” of CO, because we only had a handful of GM’s nationwide.
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  8. #18
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    Since we went there, and it is somewhat relevant to the original question - after the 2018 classifier updates it appears that on average: Open got harder, PCC remained unchanged (old open numbers), Limited got harder, CO remained mostly unchanged (generally old limited numbers), Production got harder (elevated to old limited/CO numbers), and single stack remained mostly unchanged (old limited numbers). This means that we will continue to see lots of PCC GMs in the future and the disparity between an Open and PCC GM got even wider. It also means that CO, Production, and Single Stack are all about the same now. So all things being equal, advantage goes to PCC, SS Major, and Carry Optics with the new HFs. Carry optics is just as hard as it always was, just not relatively speaking anymore. The exception for CO is the new 18 series classifiers. The CO numbers were based on the production versus limited HHFs at nationals, so I assume they will be adjusted up in the future. Bottom line - Production, Limited, and Open are very difficult now. Benos has a long thread detailing this information.

  9. #19
    It's been asked how to compare different divisions for steel challenge. Assumption is that you can't compare times as is, so we been asked to compare percentages of per-division classifier peak times and then aggregate them to overall level (if match has only standard stages). So, this is called "High Peak" in PractiScore Competitor app.

    I suppose I could do the same for uspsa stages and classifier-only uspsa matches.

  10. #20
    I think USPSA matches in general will reward open vs PCC, unless someone decides to go out of their way to make a PCC friendly match. 25-35 yards is a long shot in a USPSA match and that is not long enough to give a big advantage of a PCC vs an open gun. USPSA pushes difficult shooting positions, and this also favors open.

    The trend seems to be PCC's becoming more like open guns.

    CO will always take a hit compared to both open and PCC due to magazine capacity and minor scoring.

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