Practicing From Concealed Holster

[Byron]

Once the pistol has been drawn and press out/punch out is underway . . . I'm not tracking with how the details of the draw are now impacting the first hit on target?

Acquiring initial grip on the pistol is usually more complicated when done from concealment, rather than from an open carry holster. A poor initial grip could result in less accurate hits, even if they are delivered with the same speed.

If I'm not mistaken, this is why the FAST drill requires the first shot from the holster to be on the index card: to penalize shooters who just make a sloppy grab for the pistol on a quickdraw.

I think Caleb's point is very well made: are people just comparing their best draw speed from open vs concealed? Is first-hit accuracy being compared? Are the number of fumbled draws being compared?

[JHC]

I can do a sloppy draw to a c-hit a lot faster than I can do a draw to a guaranteed a-zone. When I'm doing something where I'm seriously tracking my first shot draw times, I need to eliminate as many variables as possible. So by saying "only draws that result in good hits count" I'm helping to manage the variable of pushing my speed so fast that I miss.

Got it. Thanks

[JHC]

Acquiring initial grip on the pistol is usually more complicated when done from concealment, rather than from an open carry holster. A poor initial grip could result in less accurate hits, even if they are delivered with the same speed.

If I'm not mistaken, this is why the FAST drill requires the first shot from the holster to be on the index card: to penalize shooters who just make a sloppy grab for the pistol on a quickdraw.

I think Caleb's point is very well made: are people just comparing their best draw speed from open vs concealed? Is first-hit accuracy being compared? Are the number of fumbled draws being compared?

My conclusions are based on experience long predating the FAST but your point about first hit is well made. First hit is definitely being compared by me anyway. And Duane Thomas I suspect. I don't count a fumbled draw as any draw at all. My observations using the FAST over the past year and a half match earlier conclusions. One of many reasons the FAST is just an efficient tool.

[LSP972]

Getting a handgun on target accurately and rapidly from a holstered/concealed position is not an easy thing to do and in my opinion demands regular practice. To the citizen who carrys discretely, the ability to draw and get on target accurately and rapidly could be the difference between a positive or negative outcome to a violent encounter.

Exactly.

I have no clue who Duane Thomas is, but he sounds to me like someone who hasn't studied the matter thoroughly; or else he does his "testing" in clothes/gear that is not very discrete.

I'll agree that if one is wearing a good OWB holster under a "shoot me first" vest, or other open-front cover garment, then perhaps there is very little disparity in draw times. Ditto for AIWB.

But for those of us who cannot utilize AIWB because of physical limitations (how's THAT for a euphemism for being fat??? ), and/or hide our iron under a closed-front cover garment...

Speed draw and fire techniques were a large part of our curriculum, and I worked with hundreds of cops, of varying experience/skill levels, in an attempt to give them a chance to survive a reactive encounter. Our program has produced several gunfight winners, so I am more than passingly familiar with the concepts involved.

Once I left the FTU Supervisor position and went into plain clothes, I did a lot of study and work on concealed carry, for my personal edification. I'm now retired, but I still carry a serious pistol every day, because the crime rate here has skyrocketed since Katrina. There are many ways to skin that cat... but if your handgun is TRULY concealed, IMO there is NO WAY you can be as fast "on the draw" from that concealment as you can from open carry; unless, of course, you're pocket carrying and start with your hand in your pocket. I assume we're speaking of a serious pistol carried in a belt holster here.

Anyway... that's my 0.02.

.

[JHC]

I think Duane Thomas is very credible (and has been since the '90's) and an accomplished shooter. He's a member at Brian Enos' forum and his contributions there are impressive IMO in that he knows what he knows but makes no pretenses to speak outside his own (albeit considerable) experience.

[JeffJ]

Concealed needs to be better defined. "IDPA concealed" vs. tuckable AIWB (what I'm wearing right now) with a tucked in shirt are two totally different things. Same thing with a deep concealed behind the hip holster under a closed front shirt.

Depending on how the pistol is concealed the difference might be negligible or significant

[ToddG]

I'm confused as to how anyone could think a concealed draw is no different than an open draw. Do 100 of each to a moderate target -- say a 5" circle at 7yd -- recording time and percentage of first hits. I'd be amazed if anyone does as well concealed, even compared to a fast concealment setup like aiwb.

Now do 25 4-shot draws to the same target from open and 25 from concealed. Record times and hits. I'm betting that most people find they're more consistent at getting a good grip from open, and/or they're slowing down in concealment to get a good grip.

Also, do not throw out fumbled draws or other mistakes. You're basically skewing data. If you fumble 1% of your open draws and 5% of your concealment draws, isn't that worth knowing?

[voodoo_man]

I had a hard time getting my draw to be as much like an open draw (from a duty holster like a safariland) from most concealed IWB holster until I got this holster.



I am not advertising or anything of that sort, just saying that I watched my times come closer together once I switched to this holster and compared the times to an open draw from retention running the same type of drills.

(its a Sayoc holster)

[JHC]

I'm confused as to how anyone could think a concealed draw is no different than an open draw. Do 100 of each to a moderate target -- say a 5" circle at 7yd -- recording time and percentage of first hits. I'd be amazed if anyone does as well concealed, even compared to a fast concealment setup like aiwb.

Now do 25 4-shot draws to the same target from open and 25 from concealed. Record times and hits. I'm betting that most people find they're more consistent at getting a good grip from open, and/or they're slowing down in concealment to get a good grip.

Also, do not throw out fumbled draws or other mistakes. You're basically skewing data. If you fumble 1% of your open draws and 5% of your concealment draws, isn't that worth knowing?

Speaking for myself I quantified a difference and qualified that I didn't judge it to be a large difference in my frame of reference which I also specified.

Good point about skewing data re the fumbled draws.

[Johnkard]

For me It is not comparable. My concealed holster is a Galco leather one that I wear just behind my right hip under and un-tucked shirt or covered by a jacket. I can draw and put a round in the A zone in under 2 seconds, but I am NOT consistent at this. If my jacket gets caught, or my shirt catches an edge...To be consistent I need to add at least one extra action into my draw (to get my clothing out of the way properly) and that inevitably adds time. A long term average would probably aggregate to around 3 seconds.

With an open holster, there is no extra movement at all. One stroke in just over a second, from kydex to cardboard. EVERY SINGLE TIME. In terms of a firefight or a competition it is a completely different order of magnitude.