(Small Rant) The trials of EDC'ing handguns for the truly mobile.

[arcfide]

I know I'm in the minority of minorities. I know that I basically don't count, but I just thought I would rant a bit here and maybe someone will come and deliver the solution. :-)

You hear about people working out their holster/gear selection because they are too tall/skinny or too fat or too stiff or because they sit for long periods of time or drive in a car for long periods of time or because they need to conceal bigger guns better or because they need to draw smaller guns faster or whatever floats your boat.

But I don't think I've met a lot of "hyper mobile" people talk about the difficulty of carrying a duty-grade handgun (G19 or larger size), or really, just about any handgun. Is it just quiet shame at being so "gumby like?"

I drive long distances, sit on various different stools and seats for long periods of time, and the like, and have less body mass compared to others, so I have the same struggles carrying/concealing that most others do in this case. However, on top of that, I'm also extremely flexible by most standards (I'm at gymnast level flexibility) and I don't like to sit still. I move around, a lot. I get up and sit down, a lot. I do martial arts of the sort that I jump around, dip down, go up, kick around, and the like, a lot. I have long arms and I move them, a lot. When I sit, I might be sitting on the floor, or on top of a chair, or hanging off the side of a railing, or upside down from something.

At times my knees will be past my shoulders while I sit comfortably working on something. I might be twisting almost 180 degrees at the waist.

I have to laugh when some people talk about how you shouldn't do flips carrying a gun (c.f. --- FBI dancing man). Well, in my life, those kind of G forces are not uncommon or unheard of. They're just a part of my life.

I have to chuckle when I see demonstrations of "retention" on some Kydex holsters, as if the only sorts of force that a gun will be subjected to in a holster is a gentle little tap. Maybe if they stuck it to the end of a baseball bat and then swung it into a wall I would be more impressed. :-) Needless to say, I don't find standard retention levels for concealed carry kydex holsters to be particularly convincing (though some leather ones seem to be able to do alright).

But retention is the least of my worries. Imagine trying to conceal any gun of reasonable "fighting strength" under those conditions. Ankle holsters are out, and most on belt solutions are solutions for me only if I accept that I'm going to be basically open carrying for a large portion of my life. AIWB is somewhat workable under some conditions, but have you ever tried to squat down on your feet (heals to the ground) while touching your knees to your neck and resting the rest of your body against your thighs (chin over the knees)? It...isn't always advisable if you're going to do that under speed while carrying AIWB. And then, of course, doing a backbend or anything approaching a back bend, such as a back stretch (Neo's Matrix move, for example) with an AIWB rig gets a little comical.

And then there is the rib-breaker, where you carry your gun IWB in your pants and your magazines on the side, and then if you bend either way, your small ribs feel like they might be in danger of breaking if you were to do that with any degree of speed and force.

Obviously small of the back is right out. Ankle holsters just give you a limp and can't carry a large gun; though, they do turn your leg into a flail, which isn't so bad.

I tend to go with leather flap magazine pouches because they are the ones that will stay shut and will hold the magazines in place, protect them from dirt and grime, and won't poke me to death as I'm bending and moving. Still, they could be much better, and I have to be wary of the flap opening under movement. Something like the Safariland accordion pouches have enough retention, but turn those magazines into little spears on the side of your body. Horizontal magazine pouches might actually work better here, but they don't exactly conceal the best, to say nothing of the draw stroke.

I often do OWB belt slide or paddle holsters. At least they tend to get out of the way, but they still have the rib breaker action. Mine has a thumb strap, which seems to work well. The Safariland paddle holsters have active retention, which is nice, but I'm not convinced of their durability and concealability. Neither of these are a real solution to the problem of mobility though. The paddle will make an attempt to cut off the circulation when your leg is bending in certain ways (such as slav style squats or Chinese splits) and the belt slide means you have to always be aware of digging the muzzle of the gun into something. And when I'm moving around, they are basically open carrying under a shirt, more than anything else.

Then there is the problem of finding something that scales to winter gear, suit and tie type wear, as well as every day button-down and slacks sort of wear.

I'm the sort of guy who has just upgraded to a slimmer, minimalist wallet for the front pocket and balances out his pockets because otherwise things get in the way of my movement. I have to be careful about pants/trousers because most of them aren't cut with enough movement freedom for me, or they look like I'm wearing something out of a Japanese Samurai movie. Trying to throw a gun into this mix just seems like I'm wearing a giant flag pole attached somewhere to my body.

So, until now, I've lived with a combination of not carrying as often or frequently as I might potentially wish to, basically open carrying (I live in areas where this is possible) for large portions of the day, or constantly removing/shifting/changing my gear throughout the day to deal with the fact that the holster/gear that I can find out there isn't suitable to my mobility needs.

I will admit that I haven't tried a shoulder holster yet, but at this point, I doubt that will make much of a difference either, except probably improving draw speed in winter clothing that I wear and probably concealing better when I'm highly mobile under some conditions.

I realize that I'm basically asking for something that no one really has a solution to, and I appreciate the realities of the situation. I live with them, such as they are, but I just thought I would share my rantings here. Maybe there are some other people who have the same issues, but I doubt it. In the end, here are some things that I think about with regards to hyper mobility:

• Retention and security matter a lot more to me than typical, even, and perhaps especially, in concealed settings
• I often dress in ways that allow me to go from open to concealed carry reasonably quickly
• I tend to favor leather over kydex for its ability to survive the twisting and stretching that I do without breaking me; props to Safariland's SafariSeven material for being pretty good here.
• I tend to give up concealability a bit simply to make it possible for me to move
• Drawing a pistol under these conditions is a challenge, because even if the pistol doesn't move, it still moves, and it's often harder to access depending on the position I'm in; thus, I tend to favor accessibility under a multitude of conditions versus sheer draw speed
• I can't seem to find a solution that is both secure and fast, but I suspect that is just life.

[feudist]

I'm gonna guess: Capoeira?

Sounds like a mousegun is better than no gun.

[Duelist]

Mousegun in a pants pocket or smartcarry when you aren’t wearing a coat. P32, G42, 340/642. Pocket carry in the coat or shoulder holster when you are wearing a coat. Open on the belt when that works for your situation.

[arcfide]

I'm gonna guess: Capoeira?

Sounds like a mousegun is better than no gun.

Hahah, I admire Capoeira, but no. I practice Chen Style Taijiquan right now. Ironically, the martial arts is probably the most "controlled" area. A typical form might look like this:

https://youtu.be/PgQUOo95hM8?t=60

Of course, the problem is when you're actually practicing and you're getting thrown around by other practitioners. Then it can look more like this:

https://youtu.be/B16EDbq8PqY

In both of these cases, I often currently find myself leaving off the firearm. I suspect a lot of other people do this as well. Of course, that indicates a bit of a problem, because eventually you would want to practice in your "street gear."

Ironically, it's not the martial arts that cause the most trouble for me, though. It'll be something like being out of town and needing to do some work at a coffee shop or in a hotel lobby or something like that. Sitting like a stick for hours at a time isn't very conducive to good work. But I find that I'm often unable to curl up on a seat or shift around in the way that I would want to do without some very strategic adjusting, and even there, it's pretty limited. It's the everyday moving about and simply being "me" that gets me in trouble more than something like Martial arts. Martial Arts comes into play when retention is considered, because there can be enough force when you're flipping over and bending around to dislodge or shift guns pretty easily.

I often find it fairly easy to "gun up" for a quick run out somewhere. Since I know I won't have to be still for long, it's easy to deal with the restrictions. I think that's the common use many people have for mouseguns, when they don't want to strap on the big guns.

This being a rant and all, I realize that putting up with a mousegun might just be one of those things I have to do, but I admit to finding that deeply unsatisfying on a number of levels. It greatly increases training difficulty, equipment selection, and the overall "thought" that has to go in to getting ready for a day.

I agree with you and Duelist that having a mousegun option might be necessary, but if I get annoyed with having a normal sized wallet in my pockets, I imagine it's going to be just as annoying to have a pocket pistol on those non-winter days.

I appreciate you listening to the rant. I'm largely just enjoying the comedy of having problems with EDC'ing a gun because I'm too active, rather than not active enough (it's a common trope among some that gun guys are fat and out of shape). I think I will give a shoulder holster a try just to see if it grants me enough freedom and consistency of access. If it does, then I'll probably be willing to dress around that in order to get an extra level of movement freedom during the day or when I need to conceal things. And if I can find a pocket gun that I like well enough, maybe I'll throw that into the mix.

[BillSWPA]

Anyone who is truly serious about carrying a gun all the time needs a tiny option for pocket carry.

Re: shoulder holsters, I have found that the horizontal style with a figure 8 harness is the most comfortable, with a Galco Miami Classic being a good choice. Don’t use belt tie downs. Adjust the shoulder straps so the holster and magazine pouch are high enough up on your sides so that they do not move when you bend forward, but not so high that the lower portion is being pulled outward.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[JHC]

I know I'm in the minority of minorities. I know that I basically don't count, but I just thought I would rant a bit here and maybe someone will come and deliver the solution. :-)

You hear about people working out their holster/gear selection because they are too tall/skinny or too fat or too stiff or because they sit for long periods of time or drive in a car for long periods of time or because they need to conceal bigger guns better or because they need to draw smaller guns faster or whatever floats your boat.

But I don't think I've met a lot of "hyper mobile" people talk about the difficulty of carrying a duty-grade handgun (G19 or larger size), or really, just about any handgun. Is it just quiet shame at being so "gumby like?"

I drive long distances, sit on various different stools and seats for long periods of time, and the like, and have less body mass compared to others, so I have the same struggles carrying/concealing that most others do in this case. However, on top of that, I'm also extremely flexible by most standards (I'm at gymnast level flexibility) and I don't like to sit still. I move around, a lot. I get up and sit down, a lot. I do martial arts of the sort that I jump around, dip down, go up, kick around, and the like, a lot. I have long arms and I move them, a lot. When I sit, I might be sitting on the floor, or on top of a chair, or hanging off the side of a railing, or upside down from something.

At times my knees will be past my shoulders while I sit comfortably working on something. I might be twisting almost 180 degrees at the waist.

I have to laugh when some people talk about how you shouldn't do flips carrying a gun (c.f. --- FBI dancing man). Well, in my life, those kind of G forces are not uncommon or unheard of. They're just a part of my life.

I have to chuckle when I see demonstrations of "retention" on some Kydex holsters, as if the only sorts of force that a gun will be subjected to in a holster is a gentle little tap. Maybe if they stuck it to the end of a baseball bat and then swung it into a wall I would be more impressed. :-) Needless to say, I don't find standard retention levels for concealed carry kydex holsters to be particularly convincing (though some leather ones seem to be able to do alright).

But retention is the least of my worries. Imagine trying to conceal any gun of reasonable "fighting strength" under those conditions. Ankle holsters are out, and most on belt solutions are solutions for me only if I accept that I'm going to be basically open carrying for a large portion of my life. AIWB is somewhat workable under some conditions, but have you ever tried to squat down on your feet (heals to the ground) while touching your knees to your neck and resting the rest of your body against your thighs (chin over the knees)? It...isn't always advisable if you're going to do that under speed while carrying AIWB. And then, of course, doing a backbend or anything approaching a back bend, such as a back stretch (Neo's Matrix move, for example) with an AIWB rig gets a little comical.

And then there is the rib-breaker, where you carry your gun IWB in your pants and your magazines on the side, and then if you bend either way, your small ribs feel like they might be in danger of breaking if you were to do that with any degree of speed and force.

Obviously small of the back is right out. Ankle holsters just give you a limp and can't carry a large gun; though, they do turn your leg into a flail, which isn't so bad.

I tend to go with leather flap magazine pouches because they are the ones that will stay shut and will hold the magazines in place, protect them from dirt and grime, and won't poke me to death as I'm bending and moving. Still, they could be much better, and I have to be wary of the flap opening under movement. Something like the Safariland accordion pouches have enough retention, but turn those magazines into little spears on the side of your body. Horizontal magazine pouches might actually work better here, but they don't exactly conceal the best, to say nothing of the draw stroke.

I often do OWB belt slide or paddle holsters. At least they tend to get out of the way, but they still have the rib breaker action. Mine has a thumb strap, which seems to work well. The Safariland paddle holsters have active retention, which is nice, but I'm not convinced of their durability and concealability. Neither of these are a real solution to the problem of mobility though. The paddle will make an attempt to cut off the circulation when your leg is bending in certain ways (such as slav style squats or Chinese splits) and the belt slide means you have to always be aware of digging the muzzle of the gun into something. And when I'm moving around, they are basically open carrying under a shirt, more than anything else.

Then there is the problem of finding something that scales to winter gear, suit and tie type wear, as well as every day button-down and slacks sort of wear.

I'm the sort of guy who has just upgraded to a slimmer, minimalist wallet for the front pocket and balances out his pockets because otherwise things get in the way of my movement. I have to be careful about pants/trousers because most of them aren't cut with enough movement freedom for me, or they look like I'm wearing something out of a Japanese Samurai movie. Trying to throw a gun into this mix just seems like I'm wearing a giant flag pole attached somewhere to my body.

So, until now, I've lived with a combination of not carrying as often or frequently as I might potentially wish to, basically open carrying (I live in areas where this is possible) for large portions of the day, or constantly removing/shifting/changing my gear throughout the day to deal with the fact that the holster/gear that I can find out there isn't suitable to my mobility needs.

I will admit that I haven't tried a shoulder holster yet, but at this point, I doubt that will make much of a difference either, except probably improving draw speed in winter clothing that I wear and probably concealing better when I'm highly mobile under some conditions.

I realize that I'm basically asking for something that no one really has a solution to, and I appreciate the realities of the situation. I live with them, such as they are, but I just thought I would share my rantings here. Maybe there are some other people who have the same issues, but I doubt it. In the end, here are some things that I think about with regards to hyper mobility:

• Retention and security matter a lot more to me than typical, even, and perhaps especially, in concealed settings
• I often dress in ways that allow me to go from open to concealed carry reasonably quickly
• I tend to favor leather over kydex for its ability to survive the twisting and stretching that I do without breaking me; props to Safariland's SafariSeven material for being pretty good here.
• I tend to give up concealability a bit simply to make it possible for me to move
• Drawing a pistol under these conditions is a challenge, because even if the pistol doesn't move, it still moves, and it's often harder to access depending on the position I'm in; thus, I tend to favor accessibility under a multitude of conditions versus sheer draw speed
• I can't seem to find a solution that is both secure and fast, but I suspect that is just life.

Hmmm. That's a tall order. But I'll take a shot.


I think I'd still go AIWB for this. Here is a G43 in a Dale Fricke Jonathan. In the deep squat, I'm aware it's there but it's not unpleasant. In my case, the deep squat will get unpleasant before this rig will I'm pretty sure.
Note: this is a deep carrying rig, intentionally so.


But a gun this size will carry easily at 3:30 also, either OWB or IWB if you are less concerned about it printing than I would be.

Attachment 34530


Attachment 34531

[Hambo]

Is it just quiet shame at being so "gumby like?"

Yes. Concealment for stick figure gumby people is impossible, so the solution is to quit being a stick figure. Stronglifts 5x5 and old school weight lifter diet should do what you need done.

[M2CattleCo]

A big part of carrying a gun is not being goofy.

Being not goofy normally involves not sitting on top of chairs, doing flips, etc.

[Robinson]

If you are committed to carrying a firearm, you really just need to select the gun and carry method that fit your criteria for a defensive weapon and then dress and behave in a manner conducive to carrying it.

I've trained in a martial art for about 30 years, and I carry a full size pistol in an AIWB holster. While carrying I choose to avoid engaging in activities that are problematic. It goes with carrying a gun. My advice is to limit your actions to things that are actually necessary while carrying a gun and select your gun and carry method based on what gives you the best balance of effectiveness, concealment, comfort, etc... Dress around the gun and holster, and behave in a manner appropriate to a person carrying a gun.

[TGS]

I'm sorry for making fun out of your question, but I swear to god the only thing I could think of while reading your post is this, and why on Earth you must engage in your activities such as squatting on stools(?) and doing backbends as a matter of regularity during your day. The only thing I can think of is that you're some kind of performer or something....:

• Retention and security matter a lot more to me than typical, even, and perhaps especially, in concealed settings
  
  ...snip...
  
• I can't seem to find a solution that is both secure and fast, but I suspect that is just life.

On a serious note, I don't think that retention matters more to you, per say, I think a more true statement is that the vast majority of people overestimate how secure their stuff is to begin with.

I certainly did, and only pressure-testing has revealed that most CCW equipment on the market is super inadequate at retaining anything if you get into a fight or bail out of a vehicle. This has driven my gear selection as I've lost more pistol and M4 mags, even an IFAK, in training evolutions than I can count. I even lost my pistol one time from a Raven Phantom during room clearing and subsequently dragging a (notionally) wounded Marine, only to have his buddy come up behind me and exclaim, "I got yo Glock, sir!" while reholstering for me as I was applying interventions.

I don't think I have an answer to your gear quest, but I just wanted to throw that out there......your retention requirements aren't actually different than anyone else's who is carrying a gun, you're just more aware of how important retention actually is. Most people don't ever have that moment of clarity on how typical CCW equipment is lacking sufficient retention, because all they ever do is go about a normal day or range session without shit hitting the fan.