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Thread: "Knives don't work well and you will go to prison no matter what!"

  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    That’s ignorant. Guns and knives are both deadly weapons = lethal force.
    Very ignorant however, it was presented in the last permit to carry course I attended. Upon questioning the instructor I was told it's part of the permit to carry curriculum that has been approved by the Minnesota Bureau of Criminal Apprehension. I have discussed this with several LE contacts and a prosecutor in my county of residence. They all felt the info was accurate.

  2. #42
    Modding this sack of shit BehindBlueI's's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 36trap View Post
    The last item is no lessor force would suffice. To limit your exposure in this state it's recommended you don't carry any kind of blade or other defensive tools while carrying a gun. The powers that be expect you to progress through your tools to solve the problem.
    While your state's case law does have that caveat, a knife is not "lessor force".

    ..."deadly force" means force which the actor uses with the purpose of causing, or which the actor should reasonably know creates a substantial risk of causing, death or great bodily harm.
    Subd. 8.Great bodily harm. "Great bodily harm" means bodily injury which creates a high probability of death, or which causes serious permanent disfigurement, or which causes a permanent or protracted loss or impairment of the function of any bodily member or organ or other serious bodily harm.
    A knife is deadly force. Do you have a cite that a knife is treated like a lesser level of force then a gun in MN courts?

    Quote Originally Posted by 43Under View Post
    ...If that is an accurate summation of Minnesota's laws then they are no different than anywhere else. ...
    The duty to retreat and "entered reluctantly" makes it a bit different then many other states.
    Sorta around sometimes for some of your shitty mod needs.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by 36trap View Post
    Very ignorant however, it was presented in the last permit to carry course I attended. Upon questioning the instructor I was told it's part of the permit to carry curriculum that has been approved by the Minnesota Bureau of Criminal Apprehension. I have discussed this with several LE contacts and a prosecutor in my county of residence. They all felt the info was accurate.
    Out of all the shooting classes I have taken, the "state approved" concealed carry class in a different state was the worst.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by BehindBlueI's View Post
    Do you have a cite that a knife is treated like a lesser level of force then a gun in MN courts?
    No, I'm not aware of a test case yet.

    Quote Originally Posted by BillSWPA View Post
    Out of all the shooting classes I have taken, the "state approved" concealed carry class in a different state was the worst.
    State approved is the only option here. The info is fine but the instructor quality can range from bubba to professional.

  5. #45
    Murder Machine, Harmless Fuzzball TCinVA's Avatar
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    This seems somewhat relevant to this thread.
    3/15/2016

  6. #46
    Site Supporter Rex G's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warped Mindless View Post

    1) Knives don't work as well as most think and it will take over 20 - 30 stabs for them to be effective and it will take to long for this to happen.
    How about, “Bullets don’t work as well as most think, and it will take over 20 - 30 shots for them to be effective, and, it will take too long for this to happen.”

    Well, OK, not exactly, but, repeatedly shooting a non-vital area can be ineffective. I have only read the original post, so apologize, in advance, if I repeat what others may have already posted.

    I also seem to remember that what this “expert” said, regarding the legal aftermath, has already been debated and debunked, either in this forum, or elsewhere.

    Just a thought: At contact distance, one should be doing more than just poking holes, whether using a knife or firearm.

    Another thought: Depending upon the design of the blade, a knife can accomplish much more than a simple in-and-out puncture, with each thrust.

    My wife has an M.D., and an 8” boar-hunting knife. I doubt that she plans to just stand there and perform 20 to 30 in-and-out linear “stabs” to defeat an attacker. (She has a couple of favored handguns, too.)

    I need more caffeine, to think clearly, so may type more, after reading the other replies. I am no expert, having received blade training oriented mostly to learning how to avoid being stabbed or cut, while LEO-ing.
    Last edited by Rex G; 01-25-2019 at 01:47 PM.

  7. #47
    Site Supporter Rex G's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BehindBlueI's View Post
    I've not thought about it much, but for defensive uses of a knife in my case files, this is true. Offense still has gut wounds but does have more neck, chest, and back injuries. Almost nobody gets stabbed in the face, but if they did you can be almost certain it's a domestic.

    Side note, I always liked stabbing cases because the interviews were interesting. There was usually more emotion and a back story behind a good stabbing. Shootings were often just business. Stabbings, though, they were often very personal messages being communicated via knife.
    This reminds me of a conversation I had with a doctor, at Ben Taub General Hospital, one of the two Level One trauma centers in Houston. He told me that women tend to be more likely to successfully inflict a fatal knife wound, because of the relative difference in average height of men and women, puts her in the ideal position to reach his heart, with a reflexive overhand stab, with the blade oriented in reverse grip. He said that men tend to dance around and slice each other, making numerous and large cutting injuries that are much less likely to kill.

    Men will, however, kill each other. I recall a case at #’s Club, where two guys, dressed as vampires, had a disagreement over a woman. One very neatly poked the other through the heart, producing a small but lethal heart wound. It was an apparently horizontal thrust. (Yes, there is a contingent of “goth” types who regularly dress and act something like vampires.)

    To be clear, I am not advocating thrusting though the rib cage as an ideal way to use a knife defensively.

  8. #48
    Member TCFD273's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TCinVA View Post


    This seems somewhat relevant to this thread.
    Defenseless, hands cuffed, and all survived a 1 minute stabbing spree.

    If you read other news sources, the attacker, who has been in prison since 2004 for murder, stabbed a guard 32 times months before. He survived as well.

    I’m by no means saying I want to be stabbed. Been there, done that kind of thing. But I maintain my initial point, knives do not work as well as many claim.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  9. #49
    Member GuanoLoco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BillSWPA View Post
    The last time I used my knife in an emergency, it was to remove a ribbon that my son had managed to get twisted around his finger tightly enough that it was not easily undone and was cutting off his circulation. I have also used it to cut him out of a car seat with a jammed (later recalled) harness latch.

    If you have kids, they probably love escalators. I am aware of an incident wherein a kid lost a foot when a shoelace got caught in an escalator. I have read that there are 10,000-15,000 serious injuries every year from clothing getting caught in escalators.

    I am not sure where the advice of not carrying a knife comes from, but I disagree.

    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    When I was a child, a mall escalator got ahold of my shoe. I don’t recall exaclty how it happened, but I know it had sucked half of my sneaker into that devil crack before someone managed to turn off the motors. To this day I don’t know how I managed to retract my foot into the 1/2 of the remaining tennis shoe.

    I believe the mall bought me a new pair of sneakers. It was a different time...
    Are you now, or have you ever been a member of the Doodie Project?

  10. #50
    Site Supporter TDA's Avatar
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    Thread Drift! I recall a thrilling story from a long ago babysitter who fainted on a mall escalator. A good samaritan on the opposite escalator leaped over and saved her, but “I could have been snatched bald!” was the punchline of the story.

    Regarding the actual thread, in my limited experience knife incidents seem to be more sensitive to who the people are and what the circumstances are. Basically everything gun related involves bad guys who have stolen guns/cars/drugs for various bad guy purposes, but anybody can get stabbed. I want to say the whole “knife killers go to jail” thing came from some piece of 1980’s training material, but I can’t remember what exactly. In the first murder trial I participated in as an intern, the defendant argued that the decedant jumped on the knife, and he was acquitted.

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