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Thread: "Knives don't work well and you will go to prison no matter what!"

  1. #11
    Hammertime
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    My 0.02c: Knives are good psychological stoppers and poor physiologic stoppers. In a clinch I suppose they can work to "reduce" your opponent. If you can target tendons as Janich suggests they are very effective at stopping muscle action. I don't know how practical that is in the chaos of a fight.

  2. #12
    Member TCFD273's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RevolverRob View Post
    But the stabber lived and the stabbee did not?

    ETA: I do want to add a quick distinction here.

    There are two issues at hand.

    1) The efficacy of a knife in dealing lethal damage.

    2) The efficacy of a knife in ending a fight.

    Those are separate, but correlated issues.

    In the case of number 1, knives (and sharp stabbing instruments in general) are extremely effective at dealing lethal damage. So, for that matter are baseball bats, bricks, and rocks.

    In the case of number 2, that's an interesting question. You might gain a slight edge in psychological stop vs. handgun, but in terms of rapidly stopping a fight or allowing you to egress from that fight? Tangling up with a knife at contact distance begins to limit your escape options and anyone who has committed to fighting someone with a knife, is committed to doing harm, period. Bear this in mind.
    I have to politely disagree. Generally speaking, when guns come out, people scatter. That has not been my experience with knives.

    As to my example above, had the attacker been shot multiple times...I’m of the opinion, based on my experience, it would’ve ended much sooner. Another example, an assailant on what I assumed was meth went into a somewhat busy gas station and began aimlessly attacking people. They banded together and took him down. I treated the attacker, the two people stabbed were treated and released the same day from the hospital.

    I carry a fixed blade for a variety of reasons, in a defensive scenario, it’s to create space and transition to a firearm.

    It seems I run into this conversation with serious knife people from time to time. Hey, you do you. All I know is what I’ve seen spending the last 15yrs working the street and part time in 2 different Level 1 Trauma centers.


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  3. #13
    Hammertime
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    Quote Originally Posted by RevolverRob View Post

    In the case of number 1, knives (and sharp stabbing instruments in general) are extremely effective at dealing lethal damage.
    Knives can be lethal, certainly, but usually not quickly.

  4. #14
    The R in F.A.R.T RevolverRob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enel View Post
    My 0.02c: Knives are good psychological stoppers and poor physiologic stoppers.
    With all respect, that does not appear to be the case, at all. But I think you're conflating a fight stoppage due to physiological shutdown of an attacker and physiological stoppage, period. If you stab someone 57 times and they die 20 minutes later, the knife was an effective physiological stopper in the hands of the stabber, i.e. the tool used stopped, literally, the physiological functions of the stabbee.

    It's the 20 minutes between the fight starting and physiological shutdown that makes the difference to the individuals in the fight. We've seen many instances of knife and handgun usage where the fight did not end due to a physiological stop. The difference that might make the handgun more effective is distance. A handgun can be and often is employed at a greater distance that results in one or more parties to the fight fleeing rather quickly from the scene. Where as a "knife fight" is an extreme close quarters scenario that may not offer a rapid escape for either party and thus may continue for an extended period of time.

    So what's the take home? If you carry a knife for defensive usage, working on your delivery, control, and escape system is really the most important part. Way too many "knife systems" focus on repeatedly stabbing and re-engaging your opponent, far fewer focus on control and escape of a clinched up scenario. The only two "knife systems" I know that actively integrate and focus on control and escapre are the Shivworks Paradigm and components of the Libre Fighting System.

  5. #15
    The R in F.A.R.T RevolverRob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TCFD273 View Post
    I have to politely disagree. Generally speaking, when guns come out, people scatter. That has not been my experience with knives.

    As to my example above, had the attacker been shot multiple times...I’m of the opinion, based on my experience, it would’ve ended much sooner. Another example, an assailant on what I assumed was meth went into a somewhat busy gas station and began aimlessly attacking people. They banded together and took him down. I treated the attacker, the two people stabbed were treated and released the same day from the hospital.

    I carry a fixed blade for a variety of reasons, in a defensive scenario, it’s to create space and transition to a firearm.

    It seems I run into this conversation with serious knife people from time to time. Hey, you do you. All I know is what I’ve seen spending the last 15yrs working the street and part time in 2 different Level 1 Trauma centers.


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    I'm not sure which part you disagree with?

  6. #16
    Member GuanoLoco's Avatar
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    I find it interesting that there plenty of commentary about the ineffectiveness of knives in rapidly stopping a fight, with the notable exception of 'making space' to get to a gun that may or may not exist.

    In contrast with discussions about the importance of shot placement, there is virtually no discussion about targeting parts of the body with a knife - parts that would usefully incapacitate an attacker, or more quickly bring an end to the fight.
    Are you now, or have you ever been a member of the Doodie Project?

  7. #17
    banana republican blues's Avatar
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    I have used a knife a time or two in my life to indicate to someone with predatory intentions to go find easier prey. (Worked in each instance to deflect their interest in me as a target.)

    My purpose in carrying a knife is as a cutting tool for mundane tasks.

    I am far more likely to use a folding knife as a striking implement (closed) if engaged in a close quarter scrum.

    Having been cut a few times requiring suturing, once in anger, it's not something I look forward to revisiting...but it's not necessarily a showstopper.
    There's nothing civil about this war.

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  8. #18
    Member GuanoLoco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blues View Post
    I have used a knife a time or two in my life to indicate to someone with predatory intentions to go find easier prey. (Worked in each instance to deflect their interest in me as a target.)

    My purpose in carrying a knife is as a cutting tool for mundane tasks.

    I am far more likely to use a folding knife as a striking implement (closed) if engaged in a close quarter scrum.

    Having been cut a few times requiring suturing, once in anger, it's not something I look forward to revisiting...but it's not necessarily a showstopper.
    Knife guys spend a lot of time working on cutting their opponents in places that matter, and, given that getting cut in return is an inevitability, trying to only take cuts in areas that are less critical to sustaining life and staying in the fight.
    Are you now, or have you ever been a member of the Doodie Project?

  9. #19
    Member TCFD273's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RevolverRob View Post
    I'm not sure which part you disagree with?
    That knives are extremely effective at delivering lethal force.

    That knives are more effective than handguns at psychological stops.


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  10. #20
    The R in F.A.R.T RevolverRob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GuanoLoco View Post
    I find it interesting that there plenty of commentary about the ineffectiveness of knives in rapidly stopping a fight, with the notable exception of 'making space' to get to a gun that may or may not exist.

    In contrast with discussions about the importance of shot placement, there is virtually no discussion about targeting parts of the body with a knife - parts that would usefully incapacitate an attacker, or more quickly bring an end to the fight.
    Depends on who the discussion is with.

    Libre definitely teaches vital targeting areas. Shivworks teaches tie ups and controls, that while not necessarily specifically constructed to aid in targeting vital areas, definitely allow those areas to be more reliably targeted.

    If we want to talk about stopping a fight with a knife quickly there are two shots you want to take - a good braced stab to the heart, or a clinched stab that drives the blade between cervical 2 and 3 in the neck. Both of those are more or less instantaneous fight stoppers. Long skinny blades driven through the external accoustic meatus (ear hole) into the skull can be effective, as can long skinny blades driven through the nostril or eye socket. But hitting any of those areas is quite difficult.

    Otherwise, solid general targets are the neck, the inner/upper thigh, the genitals, the lower torso, and the kidneys. Places to "avoid" in a clinched scenario (particularly with a small <5" bladed knife) is the chest cavity where the ribs are, the arms, the lower extremities, and the face/skull. All of those are because of hard bones that can trap the knife and/or are difficult to penetrate.

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