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Thread: Clinch Pik vs Other Piks

  1. #1
    Member Keebsley's Avatar
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    Clinch Pik vs Other Piks

    So...I am a total newb when it comes to edged weapons and it's usage other than what I know from my time watching inmates go sewing machine on each other with self made shanks and the like. We all know that the Ban Tang clinch pik or the Chineseum pik clinch pik is the gold standard for use but my question is: are other piks just as viable other than the variance in length?

    I'm asking as I saw the announcement of Craig's collab with JB Knife and Tool and was perusing and noticed that JB has other piks and the only difference that I can see with my untrained eye is length of both blade and overall. Yes, for concealment purposes, that extra inch can be an issue but other than concealability, is there any other disadvantage that I'm not seeing?

    For example the Ditch Pik: https://www.jbknifeandtool.com/Ditch-Pik_p_1022.html

    Or the Ditch Sakit: https://www.jbknifeandtool.com/Ditch-Sakit_p_1024.html

    Thanks for any info you can send my way so I can do some more educating of my lack of all things stabby other than bloodying myself.

  2. #2
    Member GuanoLoco's Avatar
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    I think the "ball" grip on the CP is a key differentiator from a concealment, comfort and usability perspective - I like it a lot.

    Also, after a session with my Ken Onion Work Sharp the now 15 degree edge is pretty sweet/scary.
    Are you now, or have you ever been a member of the Doodie Project?

  3. #3
    Gray Hobbyist Wondering Beard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keebsley View Post
    So...I am a total newb when it comes to edged weapons and it's usage other than what I know from my time watching inmates go sewing machine on each other with self made shanks and the like. We all know that the Ban Tang clinch pik or the Chineseum pik clinch pik is the gold standard for use but my question is: are other piks just as viable other than the variance in length?

    I'm asking as I saw the announcement of Craig's collab with JB Knife and Tool and was perusing and noticed that JB has other piks and the only difference that I can see with my untrained eye is length of both blade and overall. Yes, for concealment purposes, that extra inch can be an issue but other than concealability, is there any other disadvantage that I'm not seeing?

    For example the Ditch Pik: https://www.jbknifeandtool.com/Ditch-Pik_p_1022.html

    Or the Ditch Sakit: https://www.jbknifeandtool.com/Ditch-Sakit_p_1024.html

    Thanks for any info you can send my way so I can do some more educating of my lack of all things stabby other than bloodying myself.
    For their use as "stabby tools", there are no disadvantages per se, however the relation/angle of point to grip/wrist orientation may make a difference depending on the individual. For example, using a CP in reverse grip, I have to twist my wrist a bit to present the point straight. So, theoretically for me, the Ditch Pik would work just fine in reverse grip while the Sakit would involve bending the wrist, and both would be fine in forward grip.

    There is another 'angle' (pun sort of intended), that of the utility capability of these knives. On a different thread (can't remember which), I commented and described in a post how the CP is an underrated light utility knife and that I wouldn't carry it if I couldn't use it in the light utility role. Looking at the two JB Knife and Tool knives you linked, the Ditch Pik has a very curved blade which could make utility work difficult while the Sakit has, for lack of a better term, a near reverse wharncliffe blade that should be excellent for utility work. Whether or not that matters is entirely up to you :-).

    Finally, both blades are made of O1 steel which hasn't much protection against oxidation. That may or may not matter to you.
    " La rose est sans pourquoi, elle fleurit parce qu’elle fleurit ; Elle n’a souci d’elle-même, ne demande pas si on la voit. » Angelus Silesius
    "There are problems in this universe for which there are no answers." Paul Muad'dib

  4. #4
    Member Keebsley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wondering Beard View Post
    For their use as "stabby tools", there are no disadvantages per se, however the relation/angle of point to grip/wrist orientation may make a difference depending on the individual. For example, using a CP in reverse grip, I have to twist my wrist a bit to present the point straight. So, theoretically for me, the Ditch Pik would work just fine in reverse grip while the Sakit would involve bending the wrist, and both would be fine in forward grip.

    There is another 'angle' (pun sort of intended), that of the utility capability of these knives. On a different thread (can't remember which), I commented and described in a post how the CP is an underrated light utility knife and that I wouldn't carry it if I couldn't use it in the light utility role. Looking at the two JB Knife and Tool knives you linked, the Ditch Pik has a very curved blade which could make utility work difficult while the Sakit has, for lack of a better term, a near reverse wharncliffe blade that should be excellent for utility work. Whether or not that matters is entirely up to you :-).

    Finally, both blades are made of O1 steel which hasn't much protection against oxidation. That may or may not matter to you.
    Learning is occuring. I will have to look up the definition of wharncliffe and the like just so I can wrap my head around exactly what is being said but it makes "sense". I live in Idaho so oxidation wouldn't be that much of an issue as I'm not coastal but I do sweat like a stuck pig so might look at something else or just make sure they are properly cared for.

  5. #5
    Gray Hobbyist Wondering Beard's Avatar
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    A wharncliffe blade has a straight edge with no curve at all. Very good for cutting,

    Example:
    " La rose est sans pourquoi, elle fleurit parce qu’elle fleurit ; Elle n’a souci d’elle-même, ne demande pas si on la voit. » Angelus Silesius
    "There are problems in this universe for which there are no answers." Paul Muad'dib

  6. #6
    The R in F.A.R.T RevolverRob's Avatar
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    Each individual varies in their 'preferred' grips and knife shapes. If you have the opportunity, take Edged Weapons Overview with Southnarc first and there you'll be exposed to dozens of different blade types, such that you can explore many options simultaneously and get a sense of what you like and don't like.

    The Clinch Pick works very well for me in reverse grip, but I'm the opposite of Wondering Beard in that I must cant my wrist to make a good stab with it in forward grip. More important to me though, the Clinch Pick is a knife that is sized very well for concealment. We can all carry bigger knives, I'm sure, but the CP is a near perfect balance of size, capability, and shape to conceal well and still work well.

    As far as handle material, it's largely a personal preference. Right now the China-Pick I'm wearing has the handle wrapped in cloth tape to fill it out into my hand a bit more. I find the the egg-shape to be a bit too round and worse too small in its rounded form. I end up with the knife twisting in my hands. Several rounds of cloth tape thickened it up enough to limit twisting. The current generation Ban Tang Clinch Picks are near perfect with their flattened scales. Zulu Bravo Kydex is offering a scale flattening service that brings the production (i.e., "China Pick") knives in line with the current Ban Tangs.

    ___

    As for the JB Piks, if you like 'em, get one. You can, literally, never have too many knives. For preventing oxidation use Renaissance Wax (that small can will probably last you the rest of your life). Works great and is fine for incidental food contact. I Ren Wax all of my blades.
    Last edited by RevolverRob; 02-04-2019 at 01:59 PM.

  7. #7
    Member Keebsley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RevolverRob View Post
    Each individual varies in their 'preferred' grips and knife shapes. If you have the opportunity, take Edged Weapons Overview with Southnarc first and there you'll be exposed to dozens of different blade types, such that you can explore many options simultaneously and get a sense of what you like and don't like.

    The Clinch Pick works very well for me in reverse grip, but I'm the opposite of Wondering Beard in that I must cant my wrist to make a good stab with it in forward grip. More important to me though, the Clinch Pick is a knife that is sized very well for concealment. We can all carry bigger knives, I'm sure, but the CP is a near perfect balance of size, capability, and shape to conceal well and still work well.

    As far as handle material, it's largely a personal preference. Right now the China-Pick I'm wearing has the handle wrapped in cloth tape to fill it out into my hand a bit more. I find the the egg-shape to be a bit too round and worse too small in its rounded form. I end up with the knife twisting in my hands. Several rounds of cloth tape thickened it up enough to limit twisting. The current generation Ban Tang Clinch Picks are near perfect with their flattened scales. Zulu Bravo Kydex is offering a scale flattening service that brings the production (i.e., "China Pick") knives in line with the current Ban Tangs.

    ___

    As for the JB Piks, if you like 'em, get one. You can, literally, never have too many knives. For preventing oxidation use Renaissance Wax (that small can will probably last you the rest of your life). Works great and is fine for incidental food contact. I Ren Wax all of my blades.
    EWO is on the long list of classes to take with Craig. I have large palms and short fingers so having something slightly longer is better for me as I tend to find smaller grips turn or twist in my grip. The Ditch Sakit looks like something I would be able to use effectively with my limited knowledge. Granted, that's why there are trainers to help the process along.

  8. #8
    the thing to remember about the CP is that it is purpose designed tool, and it is very specific. Everything about it, from the size of the blade, to the angle it should be carried at, is for a reason.

    The shape of the handle was set up through a lot of trial and error to be as hand filling as possible while maintaining the minimum amount of material for concealment. And it was done in such a way that would cover most people. However, there is no way to cover everyone. People have too much variance to be 100% equal application. I have two students who are much bigger than average, and for both of them, the grip is a bit small. And I know of at least one student whose hands are too small for the grip to be optimal. If you need bigger, than take a look at the other options. One great one is Ban Tang's "Super CP". It is a tad longer in handle and blade.

    One thing I would strongly advise the OP is that if you do not have a solid base in knife combatives, especially with a reverse edge knife and a point driven methodology, or you have not trained with Craig or someone similar (Chris Fry has a great one day course), than I would tell you not to buy any of the pikal blades. They are somewhat counter intuitive for the inexperienced and you may either not enjoy it, or build bad habits. I would advocate getting somehting that fills that role, but is more mainstream, and maybe is much cheaper. Here is a really good one:

    https://www.amazon.com/CRKT-Minimali.../dp/B0030IT76C

    That way, when you do dive deeper into CP style blades, once you get the training, you won't have wasted money.
    For info about training or to contact me:
    Immediate Action Combatives

  9. #9
    Gray Hobbyist Wondering Beard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cecil Burch View Post
    the thing to remember about the CP is that it is purpose designed tool, and it is very specific. Everything about it, from the size of the blade, to the angle it should be carried at, is for a reason.

    The shape of the handle was set up through a lot of trial and error to be as hand filling as possible while maintaining the minimum amount of material for concealment. And it was done in such a way that would cover most people. However, there is no way to cover everyone. People have too much variance to be 100% equal application. I have two students who are much bigger than average, and for both of them, the grip is a bit small. And I know of at least one student whose hands are too small for the grip to be optimal. If you need bigger, than take a look at the other options. One great one is Ban Tang's "Super CP". It is a tad longer in handle and blade.

    One thing I would strongly advise the OP is that if you do not have a solid base in knife combatives, especially with a reverse edge knife and a point driven methodology, or you have not trained with Craig or someone similar (Chris Fry has a great one day course), than I would tell you not to buy any of the pikal blades. They are somewhat counter intuitive for the inexperienced and you may either not enjoy it, or build bad habits. I would advocate getting somehting that fills that role, but is more mainstream, and maybe is much cheaper. Here is a really good one:

    https://www.amazon.com/CRKT-Minimali.../dp/B0030IT76C

    That way, when you do dive deeper into CP style blades, once you get the training, you won't have wasted money.
    Agreed though one small point of contention: I have a couple of Ban's Super CPs and the handle is exactly the same size as the regular CP.
    " La rose est sans pourquoi, elle fleurit parce qu’elle fleurit ; Elle n’a souci d’elle-même, ne demande pas si on la voit. » Angelus Silesius
    "There are problems in this universe for which there are no answers." Paul Muad'dib

  10. #10
    The R in F.A.R.T RevolverRob's Avatar
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    I’ll add something to Cecil’s point about RE knife use and going for a tradition Forward Edge design. If you intend your fixed blade to be a utility tool in any sense, go with a traditional blade. I know some folks find the Clinch Pick to be a good utility tool, I am not one of them. The design is very purpose driven and I don’t find it useful as a utility tool pretty much at all. I solve this problem by using the CP as a dedicated defense tool and carry a folding knife for utility purposes. But if you’re going “one knife for everything” approach, then pick a more traditional blade.

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