View Poll Results: Change platforms for a dot?

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47. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes. Trust the tech

    20 42.55%
  • No. Irons all the way

    27 57.45%
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Thread: Change platforms for red dot. Yes/no

  1. #21
    Site Supporter JodyH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RevolverRob View Post
    I answered the poll No. But the reason is because I don't trust the tech - not because I don't think there are substantial gains to be had in red-dot pistols. I think there absolutely are, just that the current tech is not sufficiently mature for me to consider switching platforms just for the dot.
    ^^^ This ^^^
    My wife uses a RMR on a Walther Q5 for USPSA (she's a very casual shooter and the dot does improve her accuracy).
    I tinker around with a RMR as a toy but currently the juice isn't anywhere worth the squeeze for me when it comes to actually trying to live with one 24/7/365.

    For example, I was doing "draw to hit" drills on 8" steel plates at 20Y from AIWB with my VP9SK and big fat Night Fision sights.
    My average over 20 repetitions was 2.5 seconds (all the first shot hits were right at 2 seconds flat, any plates that took a second or third shot were in the 2.8-3 range).

    Even if I was able to shave .25 seconds off that average by increasing my first hit ratio what actual real world gains have I made compared to the negatives that current RMR tech comes with as far as reliability, batteries, target visibility, use in awkward shooting positions and varying light conditions and just general bulk and inconvenience?
    None that make a compelling argument in favor of doing anything drastic to make the switch (especially from a platform I was already competent with) to accommodate an RMR in my opinion.
    "For a moment he felt good about this. A moment or two later he felt bad about feeling good about it. Then he felt good about feeling bad about feeling good about it and, satisfied, drove on into the night."
    -- Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy --

  2. #22
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    Would I adopt or change platforms for the sake of a dot? Depends.

    Here’s where I am personally. I don’t currently NEED a dot as my vision has not yet deteriorated to the point of requiring it, but I know that day is coming at some point. Thus I’ve already taken into consideration “is this platform PMO viable” when planning purchases. If it’s not, then I will generally steer clear of those options. It’s actually one of the reasons I decided to go CZ polymer over Beretta 92s in Production. Yes, I know, you can’t have a dot in Production. But you can in Carry Optics and Carry Optics is basically a lack of dots and half empty mags away from being Production. Pretty easy transition if you ask me.

    For what I’m competing in, I would strongly like to carry something extremely similar day to day. P-09 in Production? P-07 does nicely on my hip. Was doing a G17 in Production? G19 works nicely EDC.

    Most platforms these days are pretty solid. If they’re polymer, they can generally be molded or worked over to fit you better for way less than the cost of the dot and the milling/mounting. That said, why fight hardware when you don’t have to or need to? Make a list of platforms that can host a dot properly. Then distill that list down to what works for you.

    So would I switch platforms to use a dot? If the platform I was using couldn’t properly support it and I NEEDED a dot, then yes. But if it CAN support a dot, then why change?


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  3. #23
    Site Supporter JodyH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RevolverRob View Post
    ETA: Also, one component of the next generation of pistol optics will be internal rechargeable batteries that recharged via a USB-C port.
    Hey Grandpa... have you ever heard of QI inductive charging?

    The heck with plugging in a USB-C, how about just laying your pistol down on the inductive charging pad built into your nightstand and both your RMR and your WML are topped off within a few minutes?
    "For a moment he felt good about this. A moment or two later he felt bad about feeling good about it. Then he felt good about feeling bad about feeling good about it and, satisfied, drove on into the night."
    -- Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy --

  4. #24
    Member 98z28's Avatar
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    There's quite a bit here that I agree with, as usual (I should probably step out of the echo chamber more, but that's a different thread).

    I particularly like the suggestion to add a red dot gun rather than switch. All of the carry benefits mentioned are there for the red dot (ease of shooting precisely at distance, single focal plane, etc.), but the trade offs involved make the value proposition of a red dot for carry unclear for most people (value proposition = benefits - costs).

    Every red dot available has significant downsides for carry. They have either questionable robustness (Shield, DP Pro, Sig, etc), or they are challenging enough to use that you lose some of the benefits outside of a static range environment (RMR). All have open emitters that can be obstructed, glass that can fog, and a lense design such that any physical obstruction also blocks your backup irons. Heck, just cleaning the daily accumulation of lint off a carry gun optic is necessary in my experience.

    In addition, you will probably want to mill a carry gun for the optic, which locks you into that optic on that slide. And from above, there isn't an obvious best choice in optic footprint yet. The general consensus is that all multi-optic solutions (Glock MOS, etc) are sub-par right now for a serious use gun.

    All of that said, the training benefits of a red dot are big enough to set aside some ammo budget and acquire a gun with a dot. A laser can achieve similar results, but you can use the dot as a trigger and visual coach at any distance. The laser is limited to closer ranges, changes the grip, and often requires holster modification. Lasers are also less robust than red dots, in my experience. I've lost count of how many CTC grips I've broken in training. I have only killed one red dot, and it was a Vortex.

    There are also less obvious costs when switching platforms. If you have a vetted set of guns, you have something very valuable. The last time I switched platforms, I switched to the Sig 320 ahead of Dropgate. I put lots of ammo through a brace of guns verifying function (including magazines), getting sights dialed in, choosing holsters, etc. About the time I was satisfied, Dropgate hit. I was thousands of dollars down a path that I had to abandon.

    Manufacturers are always dealing with some kind of issue. When I went looking for a gun to replace the 320, gen 5 Glocks were having issues with trigger bars.

    I will wait for an obvious red dot option for carry to emerge before dropping the cash on switching platforms. That assumes that there are no mitigating circumstances such as vision issues, a large hobby budget, etc.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by JodyH View Post
    ^^^ This ^^^
    My wife uses a RMR on a Walther Q5 for USPSA (she's a very casual shooter and the dot does improve her accuracy).
    I tinker around with a RMR as a toy but currently the juice isn't anywhere worth the squeeze for me when it comes to actually trying to live with one 24/7/365.

    For example, I was doing "draw to hit" drills on 8" steel plates at 20Y from AIWB with my VP9SK and big fat Night Fision sights.
    My average over 20 repetitions was 2.5 seconds (all the first shot hits were right at 2 seconds flat, any plates that took a second or third shot were in the 2.8-3 range).

    Even if I was able to shave .25 seconds off that average by increasing my first hit ratio what actual real world gains have I made compared to the negatives that current RMR tech comes with as far as reliability, batteries, target visibility, use in awkward shooting positions and varying light conditions and just general bulk and inconvenience?
    None that make a compelling argument in favor of doing anything drastic to make the switch (especially from a platform I was already competent with) to accommodate an RMR in my opinion.
    Pretty much every PR run I have done is with iron sights. However, I am way more consistent with a dot. Iron sights require interpretation, where a dot is either on the target or not. Except a low sun angle in your face, I find a red dot much easier to use in a range of lighting conditions, especially low light. A red dot is even is usable for me without my glasses or contacts, although it appears about 100 moa. It is also easier to get an exact zero with the red dot.

    How do you like those sights on the HK? I would like something orange front with a rear that is rounded and won’t tear me and my shirts up.
    Likes pretty much everything in every caliber.

  6. #26
    Site Supporter JodyH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GJM View Post
    How do you like those sights on the HK? I would like something orange front with a rear that is rounded and won’t tear me and my shirts up.
    Started a Night Fision thread
    "For a moment he felt good about this. A moment or two later he felt bad about feeling good about it. Then he felt good about feeling bad about feeling good about it and, satisfied, drove on into the night."
    -- Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy --

  7. #27
    Site Supporter jwperry's Avatar
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    I voted yes.

    Beginning of 2018 I switched from P22x series to Glocks because of how easy it was to get into the optics ready platform. After 6 months I found that I still didn't like Glocks, but I saw a huuuuge improvement with my Glock shooting. So, I did what I should have done in the first place and started getting RMRs direct milled onto my Sigs.

    Like some other members, my PR for speed based drills (bill drill & el presidente) is still with irons but anything that weighs accuracy > speed my RMR times are faster(super test). My vision is also faulting at arms' length and late last year I picked up my first pair of reading glasses. The RMR has removed the front sight focus issue and subsequent post-handgun shooting headaches I was previously experiencing from transitioning focal planes (target to front sight).

    I like the weight, balance and handling characteristics of the PX4 FOW and I'm eager to get one of my PX4 compacts milled for a red dot to see how it works. Otherwise, I'm very happy with my RMR equipped P229s & P226s.

  8. #28
    Site Supporter CCT125US's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duke View Post
    Would you adopt or switch platforms to a pistol that you don’t like simply because it is more readily equipped for a red dot than your current/preferred handgun

    Is the dot that much an advantage now that it has aged a few years?

    At one time I had 6 RMR guns of diffent makes.

    I will say my personal use of these 6 at that time mostly was favorable. I did not find the concept to be as bombproof nor reliable as it was preached by those who marketed them
    No.

    Not in my opinion.

    What additional info would you hope to glean from revisiting the concept? Having a knowledge base of 6 prior RMR guns seems fairly solid.

    My personal, but very limited experience with RMRs showed me the the tech wasn't right for me. My first run was an RMR06 on a rifle. Very first range trip on an overcast misty day was interrupted because the moisture pooled on the emitter, creating a massive starburst. As in, the gun was exposed for maybe 5 minutes as I set up the target stand and stapled up targets. Pretty bad first impression.

    Second trial was the use a a friends RMR G19. The tombstone shape, blue tint, distortion / magnification, and the Tritium suppressor sights, were not a good combination for me at that time.

    Most recent experience with a dot was not an RMR but a Holosun HS403GL mounted on a PCC. Dot would not dial properly for W/E, it would jump under recoil. Since replaced under warranty.

    My faith in electro sights is pretty low right now.

    You may look into borrowing a setup to dip your toes back in.
    Taking a break from social media.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by jwperry View Post
    I voted yes.

    Beginning of 2018 I switched from P22x series to Glocks because of how easy it was to get into the optics ready platform. After 6 months I found that I still didn't like Glocks, but I saw a huuuuge improvement with my Glock shooting. So, I did what I should have done in the first place and started getting RMRs direct milled onto my Sigs.

    Like some other members, my PR for speed based drills (bill drill & el presidente) is still with irons but anything that weighs accuracy > speed my RMR times are faster(super test). My vision is also faulting at arms' length and late last year I picked up my first pair of reading glasses. The RMR has removed the front sight focus issue and subsequent post-handgun shooting headaches I was previously experiencing from transitioning focal planes (target to front sight).

    I like the weight, balance and handling characteristics of the PX4 FOW and I'm eager to get one of my PX4 compacts milled for a red dot to see how it works. Otherwise, I'm very happy with my RMR equipped P229s & P226s.
    I was discussing this with Talionis a few days ago, I think there is about a ten percent speed pick up with a DP Pro over an RMR, when shooting multiple targets.
    Likes pretty much everything in every caliber.

  10. #30
    Site Supporter jwperry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GJM View Post
    I was discussing this with Talionis a few days ago, I think there is about a ten percent speed pick up with a DP Pro over an RMR, when shooting multiple targets.
    I'm not that fast to begin with.
    My personal take on the irons vs PMO is that, for me irons were/are faster on the pure speed drills due to my indecision with shooting a dot. With irons, there was a much larger focal object, covering a much larger portion of the target, but with the dot I'm trying to process more and deliver more precision due to the better clarity. All my dots are in the 3MOA range, the larger ones stimulate my astigmatism too much.

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