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Thread: 2 Handguns with Different "holds", adapt or change one?

  1. #1
    Site Supporter rdtompki's Avatar
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    2 Handguns with Different "holds", adapt or change one?

    Competition 9mm 1911 is a center hold with adjustable rear sights. Normal practice 2x/week prior to our move to Idaho this past November. Double taps are infrequent in steel challenge either because a) you'll catch that target on the way back or b) you didn't miss. There are exceptions. And I have a lot of experience with this platform, maybe 75K rounds over the last two years.

    Have been doing some indoor shooting with my HKP2000 (9mm) indoors getting ready for an Enhanced CCW class. The class and qual should be very simple, but I'm finding with the HK, set up for a cover hold, that rapid fire shots subsequent to the draw shot are hitting low. I'm conscious of the cover hold on the draw, but my sense is that on the subsequent shots I'm reverting to the way my brain is wired.

    There's plenty of work to be done on the HK especially drawing IWB, but regarding the sight picture I'm wondering if I wouldn't be better off adjusting my 1911 to cover hold to at least eliminate that factor? Input would be appreciated.

    Other factors BTW: I've got to do some draw rewiring from the 4 o'clock position to still drive the gun out straight to the target. This isn't really a conflict with the 1911 since the holster positions and starting hand positions are so different. Just a question of working the draw. Also need work on my support hand out of the draw; again, that I can address with dry fire and practice.

  2. #2
    I wouldn't have thought at 5-7 yards it'd really matter all that much.

  3. #3
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    How do you grip the 1911? Thumb on safety?

    I ask this because I found the sort of disconnect in grip (and for me stance as well) several years ago when I transitioned from 1911 (for twenty years) to big-frame Glocks. At the same time, I switched from a Modified Weaver stance to a Modern Isoceles. Taking the the LAV 1911 Operator's course, I found I had seemingly intermittent no-bang presentations from the holster. I'd run a tap-rack-bang to stay in the game but it was VERY disconcerting.

    This took me quite a while to parse out, but the subtle differences of firing hand placement getting straight behind the gun caused me to come off of the grip safety when I rode the thumb on the safety. I've since reverted to the Modified Chapman stance then shoot a 1911 with firing hand thumb below the safety, support hand thumb high (essentially locking the tip of the firing hand thumb from maybe clicking on the safety. Interaction between the body English, if you will, of the stance and firing grip proved to be very, very hard wired.
    Hope this helps.

  4. #4
    I would change the sights. I can't be bothered to think, OK shooting gun X I need sight picture A. All my guns shoot to the same sight picture.

  5. #5
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    You already have the issue of two different pistols with different controls and different ergonomics going on, having to deal with two different sight pictures will just amplify that. I recommend adjusting the sights so that you always use the same sight picture. You say the sight on the 1911 is adjustable so you could adjust it, but on the other hand it sounds like you prefer the sight picture you already use on that gun. Is it possible to adjust the sights on the HK or install a taller rear sight or shorter front sight?

    Also, have you given any thought to using the same type of pistol for carry and competition?

  6. #6
    Hammertime
    Join Date
    Apr 2016
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    Desert Southwest

    2 Handguns with Different "holds", adapt or change one?

    You are a very experienced shooter, so his may not apply, but for me, especially with the LEM, I threw shots quite low with the P2000 when I switched to it from Glock. This was especially pronounced when attempting to shoot fast.

    All that to say, it may be your trigger control/recoil timing and not the sights, especially if your first shot is on target.

    I wouldn’t change the sight picture on a gun you have over 75,000 rounds through.
    Last edited by Doc_Glock; 01-15-2019 at 08:45 AM.

  7. #7
    Change the sight(s) on the HK.
    I gather it is regulated to shoot low by your (and my) standards, shooting to the spots instead of the post. In the early days of night sights and painted spots it was assumed you would take careful aim with a Patridge sight picture and just use the color reference for close range in a hurry. Nowadays we "drive the dot"
    Code Name: JET STREAM

  8. #8
    Member
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    Oct 2014
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    Savannah, GA
    I'm OCD about all my sights hitting the exact same point of impact (exactly on top edge of front sight at 25 yds) with the intended ammo used in each gun.

    If you're only shooting at 5-7 yds though it doesn't matter.

    EDIT: If you're hitting low as in you aimed at the middle of a 2" dot and hit 1/2"-1" below it at 7 yds, then that's your sight offset. If you're hitting low as in you draw and hit 6" or more below the center of a torso of a silhouette, you're looking over your sights and not seeing the sight picture you think you're seeing on the draw.
    Last edited by Gio; 01-15-2019 at 01:15 PM.

  9. #9
    Site Supporter rdtompki's Avatar
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    Very much appreciate the thoughtful responses.

    1911-wise my thumb is on the safety. Safety manipulation is on autopilot as long as I'm coming out of the holster. If I pick up a safe gun from a table I'll "forget" to off the safety 9 of 10 times - go figure.

    Shortly after my original post I took an Enhanced CCW class (in ID). The instructor was very good, but the 100+ rounds is not designed to be a real test since there were some very inexperienced folks on the line. All I was trying to do was shoot speed-wise in the group so my accuracy was pretty darn good at very short range. He kept telling to shoot faster; I'd shoot faster and he'd tell me to shoot faster yet. And so it went. I don't know my splits from low ready with the HK, but I'm sure I could shoot fast splits on target with a 1911. Now that I'm in a free state I can buy a lightweight commander I'm going to investigate; in fact I've got a session with a trainer on Thursday to discuss and shoot just to get an unbiased opinion. I can test drive with one of my wife's Kimber HD Pro Carry II and I already have an EMP, both in 9mm. In Idaho folks aren't paranoid as they are in California so inadvertent "exposure" is not an issue plus the HK P2000 isn't much different in size versus a commander 1911.

    I do agree that if I stick with the HK I should change the sights, probably on the HK since I've noticed a tendency on 15 yd. and longer shots on small steel to align the sights low in an attempt to "see" the target better. An HK sight picture would only exacerbate that tendency.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by rdtompki View Post
    have a lot of experience with this platform, maybe 75K rounds over the last two years.
    You’re probably in the top 0.001% of shooters. That’s about $15,000 of ammo shot in the past 2 years alone. I doubt it matter much what you do with the sights, grip, etc. For realistic civilian defensive distances your $15k investment in training ammo should cover any minor differences in guns.

    However, I’d consider a smaller compact version of your training 1911 if one exists, and carry that instead of the HK.

    Another possibility is to change your competition gun to match the carry gun you want. Personally I like glocks so they correlary for me might be to carry a G26 or G19 but compete with a G34 with KKM barrel and fancy trigger. Unless there’s a specific reason you need to compete with the 1911. Personally I’d rather my competition gun match my carry gun then vise versa since carry is more important than competition for me.

    With as much as you say you’re shooting, and I can only imagine how much dry fire you must be doing on top of the approximately 750 rounds per week of live fire, then I don’t think you’ll have a problem adapting to any firearm you choose to carry.

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