Page 3 of 6 FirstFirst 12345 ... LastLast
Results 21 to 30 of 60

Thread: Selecting a Sighting System for the Shotgun

  1. #21
    Member HopetonBrown's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    California Uber Alles
    Quote Originally Posted by Borderland View Post

    I just can't imagine trying to use a dot on a pistol or shotgun in a defensive encounter.

    personally I would keep the dots off of a shotgun or pistol for defensive use. They just slow you down.
    No they don't.

  2. #22
    Site Supporter Borderland's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2019
    Location
    Somewhere
    Quote Originally Posted by mtnbkr View Post
    Why a shotgun? Much greater stopping power. Most of the class attendees were former or current LEO and Mil, as well as trainers in those environments. They all agreed that carbines not only took more than 1 shot to stop threats, they were trained to use more than 1 shot as a result.

    For a "novice" class, there were a lot of experienced folks there, including folks with prior experience using the shotgun in LEO and competition environs. There's a reason those folks showed up with iron sights, red dots, etc on their guns instead of mere beads.


    Skeet shooters are solving a different set of problems with their guns. The gear is different, the mission is different, the necessary outcome is different. It's not a valid comparison at all. A closer comparison would be large game hunting, where you WILL see rifle sights, ghost rings, or dot sights with buckshot and slugs.

    Chris
    Looks like you have a plan.

    Listen to the tactical pros who mostly train with carbines and pistols.
    Last edited by Borderland; 06-06-2019 at 12:02 PM.
    Snubbies.....resolving CQC issues since nineteen fiddy.

  3. #23
    Big/wide sights are great for buckshot and full value targets, but they suck for using slugs on anything small at distance.

    At Gunsite last year, I had difficulty with some of the steel as my front sight was wider than the target. I have adopted the approach that any shotgun that will serve as a primary long gun must have either on optic or a fine front sight with a lot of light around it.
    I had an ER nurse in a class. I noticed she kept taking all head shots. Her response when asked why, "'I've seen too many people who have been shot in the chest putting up a fight in the ER." Point taken.

  4. #24
    Murder Machine, Harmless Fuzzball TCinVA's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Virginia
    Quote Originally Posted by Borderland View Post
    So what exactly is the point of using a shotgun with a tight pattern at 15 yds.????
    Because a defensive shotgun is typically being used in relatively close proximity to a lot of other innocent people who can and have been killed by stray pellets.

    You would be better served with a carbine, same dynamics involved, especially if you're going with a long gun.
    No, you would not.

    Carbines and shotguns do not behave identically either on the flesh of a real threat or beyond it.

    With all due respect your class was for novice shotgun shooters. Nothing wrong with that as everyone has to start someplace.
    I taught both classes. Neither were intended for novice shooters.

    Both were intended for someone who already has a solid base of competence in using a shotgun and the class content was intended to push someone who is competent with a defensive shotgun into being truly proficient with one.

    In the JDC class I was part of the instructional crew along with Brett Harnish and Jay LaLuz, both of whom bring their years of experience using a defensive shotgun in the real world to the table. Both of whom thought enough of my shotgun content to take Shotgun 360, Shotgun Skills, and Home Defense Shotgun on their own.

    I think a lot of this aiming philosophy with a shotgun mostly comes from the shooting industry trying to sell gear to novice shooters.
    My aiming philosophy with a defensive shotgun comes entirely from what I have learned in the last 20 years about how to stop a violent threat and the levels of accountability one faces in the aftermath of using lethal force in self defense.

    You are no less accountable for the projectiles you fire from a shotgun than you are for the projectiles you fire from a pistol or a rifle. Beyond that, pellets that do not hit the things on a bad guy that actually force him to stop trying to kill you don't help you accomplish the mission of using a defensive shotgun.

    If you truly want to learn how to use a shotgun take some tips from people who shoot them in competition.
    If you want to be excellent at busting clays with a shotgun, train with someone who is excellent at that.

    If you want to be excellent at running 3 gun...including using the reloading gear that does not exist outside of the game of 3 gun because it is utterly impractical for any other use...by all means train with a 3 gunner.

    If you want to run a defensive shotgun, train with somebody who knows how to use it as a defensive weapon...including being able to intelligently guide you in the setup of the weapon for optimal control (which looks nothing like the setup for optimal clay shooting) and offers intelligent guidance on selecting ammunition that accomplishes the goal of stopping a threat in a way that does not endanger other innocent people.

    You won't see any ghost rings on shotguns used by Olympic skeet shooters.
    What Olympic skeet shooters do on the skeet range will not do a fucking thing for you when you have to explain the final resting place of the pellets you fired in a defensive shooting.

    Comparing defensive use of a shotgun where we are firing a completely different munition under completely different circumstances with a completely different goal in mind and a completely different set of consequences at stake with shooting birds or trap/skeet is stupid. But that's one of the problems with the defensive shotgun: So many people's only frame of reference is from recreational use of a shotgun and therefore they make all kinds of assumptions based on that reference that is, in reality, completely irrelevant to the goals of using the shotgun defensively.
    Last edited by TCinVA; 06-06-2019 at 12:50 PM.
    3/15/2016

  5. #25
    Murder Machine, Harmless Fuzzball TCinVA's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Virginia
    There is a post stuck to the top of the Shotgun forum which contains my opinion on sighting a defensive shotgun and the reasoning behind it:

    https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....considerations

    Short version:

    On a defensive shotgun, rifle style sights, ghost rings, or a quality RDS setup like the Aridus Industries CROM are preferred. We use those because it's the only way to guarantee we can accurately place the munitions we use for defensive purposes on target regardless of the circumstances.
    3/15/2016

  6. #26
    Site Supporter Borderland's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2019
    Location
    Somewhere
    Quote Originally Posted by TCinVA View Post
    There is a post stuck to the top of the Shotgun forum which contains my opinion on sighting a defensive shotgun and the reasoning behind it:

    https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....considerations

    Short version:

    On a defensive shotgun, rifle style sights, ghost rings, or a quality RDS setup like the Aridus Industries CROM are preferred. We use those because it's the only way to guarantee we can accurately place the munitions we use for defensive purposes on target regardless of the circumstances.
    Your argument suggests that you would be far better off with a carbine. It seems to be geared toward shot placement.

    You seem to be saying that shot placement is critical. You also suggest that you need a ghost ring to accurately shoot a shotgun in a defensive situation at 15 yds. I would counter with this. If a person can hit a very small target moving at 40 mph at 30 yards there is absolutely no reason a person would need a ghost ring to hit a much larger stationary target at 15 yards. Your logic and that of the so called expert tactical trainers escapes me. A smooth bore shotgun barrel doesn't care what the size of the shot is that goes down the barrel. At close range the pattern is much smaller than at longer ranges. Works the same for both large and small shot.

    The tactical shotgun with a ghost ring and a pistol grip was dreamed up by firearms manufacturers to sell more shotguns to the tactical timmy's. The tactical shotgun for police departments was an standard 870 with an 18 barrel and an extended magazine for decades. Some still use them. They function the same no matter what you hang on them or what type of ammo you use. The only real difference is marketing and the belief that it isn't tactical unless it has the word combat or tactile in the name.

    Is an AR tactical without a dot? I hope to shout it is but you won't find many people using them without a dot because.......dots are much easier to hit with at normal combat ranges (100-150yds).
    Last edited by Borderland; 06-06-2019 at 03:14 PM.
    Snubbies.....resolving CQC issues since nineteen fiddy.

  7. #27
    Murder Machine, Harmless Fuzzball TCinVA's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Virginia
    Quote Originally Posted by Borderland View Post
    Your argument suggests that you would be far better off with a carbine. It seems to be geared toward shot placement.

    You seem to be saying that shot placement is critical. You also suggest that you need a ghost ring to accurately shoot a shotgun in a defensive situation at 15 yds. I would counter with this. If a person can hit a very small target moving at 40 mph at 30 yards there is absolutely no reason a person would need a ghost ring to hit a much larger stationary target at 15 yards.
    You find it difficult to understand how firing a payload of several hundred tiny pellets that spreads out to 10x the size of the intended target at 30 yards is different than hitting small vital structures buried deep within a person's anatomy with 8 or nine larger pellets that spread out to about the span of a man's hand at much closer range is a completely different phenomenon.

    I'm glad you pointed that out instead of me.

    Your logic and that of so called expert tactical trainers
    They are not "so called" experts. They are actual experts. They are actual experts because they have spent decades actually using firearms as defensive weapons and, most crucially, preparing others to accomplish the task of using a firearm to win a fight and to do so within the boundaries of the law.

    You do not have that level of education and experience and it fucking shows.

    Pistol-Forum is a place that was founded in the interest of helping people get access to good information and encouraging them to pursue training. I know because I'm one of the people who helped found it. Your expressed sentiment in that stupid comment is the absolute antithesis of what this board was created to be. As you go on to prove with your next completely ridiculous, uninformed, and frankly unforgivably stupid comment:

    The tactical shotgun with a ghost ring and a pistol grip was dreamed up by firearms manufacturers to sell more shotguns to the tactical timmy's. The tactical shotgun for police departments was an standard 870 with an 18 barrel and an extended magazine for decades. They function the same no matter what you hang on them or what type of ammo you use. The only real difference is marketing and the belief that it isn't tactical unless it has the word combat or tactile in the name.

    Is an AR tactical without a dot? I hope to shout it is but you won't find many people using them without a dot because.......it just doesn't look tactical enough.
    Apart from your glaring factual errors, it's patently clear that you do not have any basis of education or experience to back up any of the completely ridiculous commentary you have made in this thread.

    People come here for good information, not the uninformed blathering of people who don't know what the fuck they are talking about.

    I don't know what your expertise in life is, but it clearly isn't this topic.
    Last edited by TCinVA; 06-06-2019 at 03:14 PM.
    3/15/2016

  8. #28
    Site Supporter Borderland's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2019
    Location
    Somewhere
    Apart from your glaring factual errors, it's patently clear that you do not have any basis of education or experience to back up any of the completely ridiculous commentary you have made in this thread.
    Other than being evolved with shotguns competitively for score and money for 20 plus years I'm a novice.

    Some ranges will actually run you off if you want to use your "tactical" shotgun.

    I give up.
    Last edited by Borderland; 06-06-2019 at 03:26 PM.
    Snubbies.....resolving CQC issues since nineteen fiddy.

  9. #29
    Member HopetonBrown's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    California Uber Alles
    Quote Originally Posted by Borderland View Post

    Some ranges will actually run you off if you want to use your "tactical" shotgun.
    Some ranges are run by Boomer Fudd's who think guns are only for shooting clay pigeons and ducks.

    The same Boomer Fudd's hated IDPA/USPSA at the range I was a member of and thought it was too dangerous, while they rest the barrel of their over under shotgun on their foot.

    Luckily these Boomer Fudd's are going the way of the dinosaur and being replaced by people who understand that Gun Culture 2.0 doesn't give a shit about clay pigeons and ducks, and are buying guns for self defense and action shooting sports.

  10. #30
    So, what sighting systems would you guys suggest for a defensive shotgun understanding that the decision has been made to use a shotgun and not a carbine?
    I had an ER nurse in a class. I noticed she kept taking all head shots. Her response when asked why, "'I've seen too many people who have been shot in the chest putting up a fight in the ER." Point taken.

User Tag List

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •