It's not an RDS, but Williams has a green and red fiber optic ghost ring set that goes right on factory Remington rifle-sighted 870 barrels. I'm not aware of how it's held up (or if it's even been used) in LEO or sandbox use, but I liked it enough to put a similar setup on a couple Marlins.
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Not another dime.
If attached securely, looks like their version of an Aimpoint S1 on a vent rib, on the barrel. I like it, although I would rather have a closed emitter on a long gun, that is harder than a handgun, to keep out of the weather.Originally Posted by John91
Likes pretty much everything in every caliber.
Humble thoughts from a long-time shotgunner:
Beads on a shotgun are meant to verify good gun fit while the gun is mounted in the firing position, not as an aiming device, per se. In other words, you want the gun to point where you are looking during the mounting/firing sequence without having to verify (by looking back to the beads). High-visibility sights on a sporting shotgun are a different matter: they help some shooters establish/verify lead on small, moving targets. Even then, however, they are best used in the shooter's periphery rather than as a point of focus or an 'aiming' point.
I believe high-tech sighting systems on a shotgun meant for defensive use in/around the home are overrated---unless you are shooting slugs. If you are shooting buckshot through a short-barreled shotgun with an open choke, you are essentially launching a quickly-spreading shot cloud at a slow moving (or stationary) target. Aiming, as you would with a pistol, is barely relevant; pointing is what you are doing.
With all this in mind, your greater priorities are verifying good gun fit and determining how your ammo patterns at different distances. Once you know these two key parameters, you can mount, point and shoot very effectively without ever even glancing at sights, be they beads, red dots, ghost rings, etc.
Again, all of this is about defensive shotgun use at the home and using buckshot rather than slugs.
Last edited by ubervic; 06-06-2019 at 08:40 AM.
Excellent post.
I've been a bird hunter and trap shooter for a long time. Lets just say I've put more lead in the air with a shotgun than most.
To me putting any type of aiming device on a shotgun seems pointless, unless you're using it with a slug barrel. If a person can hit a fast moving target crossing at 30 yards without using any type of aiming device that should tell you all you need to know about getting a shot cloud on target. You just don't need them. As ubervic points out, beads and ribs aren't really aiming devices as many believe because people trying to connect on a fast moving target aren't aiming, they're pointing.
In any high stress shooting situation with a defensive weapon like a pistol or shotgun people don't aim, they point. I just can't imagine trying to use a dot on a pistol or shotgun in a defensive encounter. Ghost rings are also aiming devices meant for rifles, I have one that I use on a carbine out to 200 yds. with good results.
A light or laser (pointing device) might be helpful in a very dark environment but personally I would keep the dots off of a shotgun or pistol for defensive use. They just slow you down. Spend the money on ammo and range time.
Last edited by Borderland; 06-06-2019 at 09:21 AM.
In the P-F basket of deplorables.
@TCinVA
With these assumptions:
Federal Flite Control buckshot
Distances 15yds or less (typical max distance in most homes)
I respectfully disagree.
I've taken two defensive shotgun classes. One using a bead-sight-equipped shotgun, the next with the same shotgun, but with rifle sights.
The difference in accuracy and speed were obvious. The rest of the gun and the ammo used was identical.
At 15yds and below, the tight patterns of Flite Control can easily miss your target cleanly if you're not aiming. Shotgun-style "pointing" is sub-optimal. Prior to those two classes, I would have agreed with you, but actual performance in the classes says otherwise.
Home defense guns with shorter barrels have a different POI when trying to shoot it like a field gun. I didn't believe it until I started taking classes and experienced that firsthand, especially in challenging positions and scenarios.
Chris
OK. Flite Control appears to pattern extremely densely, nearly mimicking the density performance of a slug at distances within 15 yds. If so, then it makes sense to treat the pointing/aiming of the shotgun much like one would as with using slugs.
So what exactly is the point of using a shotgun with a tight pattern at 15 yds.???? You would be better served with a carbine, same dynamics involved, especially if you're going with a long gun. Plus with a carbine you get the added benefit of a serious 200 yd defensive weapon. With all due respect your class was for novice shotgun shooters. Nothing wrong with that as everyone has to start someplace.
I think a lot of this aiming philosophy with a shotgun mostly comes from the shooting industry trying to sell gear to novice shooters. If you truly want to learn how to use a shotgun take some tips from people who shoot them in competition. No aiming devices on those shotguns, just ribs and beads. You won't see any ghost rings on shotguns used by Olympic skeet shooters. That's the ultimate fast shooting dead on shotgun shooting sport.
In the P-F basket of deplorables.
The point is you get 8-9 good sized projectiles punching through vital organs and major blood vessels all at once.
Skeet shooting uses birdshot, which indeed creates a kind of cloud of pellets - but they’re teeny tiny pellets, which basically suck at punching through the vital organs and major blood vessels of large mammals.
So I don’t think that what is well done in skeet or bird hunting is necessarily relevant to antipersonnel use of the shotgun.
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Last edited by nalesq; 06-06-2019 at 10:31 AM.
Why a shotgun? Much greater stopping power. Most of the class attendees were former or current LEO and Mil, as well as trainers in those environments. They all agreed that carbines not only took more than 1 shot to stop threats, they were trained to use more than 1 shot as a result.
For a "novice" class, there were a lot of experienced folks there, including folks with prior experience using the shotgun in LEO and competition environs. There's a reason those folks showed up with iron sights, red dots, etc on their guns instead of mere beads.
Skeet shooters are solving a different set of problems with their guns. The gear is different, the mission is different, the necessary outcome is different. It's not a valid comparison at all. A closer comparison would be large game hunting, where you WILL see rifle sights, ghost rings, or dot sights with buckshot and slugs.
Chris
It really depends on whether you view the shotgun as a shot launcher that has the ability to also send slugs, or you view the shotgun primarily as a single projectile (or buck that is nearly as tight as a slug at certain distances) launcher that has the ability to also send shot.
I am in the second camp, as my shotguns are loaded with Brenneke slugs, and I carry a round or two of shot for special purposes. The red dot allows me to easily adjust my POI to an exact spot, and gives me a muzzle to 100 yard, or further, envelope. The tiny bit of speed with shot I give up, using a red dot instead of a vent rib, I more than make up for with command of the 15-100 yard envelope.
Likes pretty much everything in every caliber.
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