Selecting a Sighting System for the Shotgun

[GJM]

So, what sighting systems would you guys suggest for a defensive shotgun understanding that the decision has been made to use a shotgun and not a carbine?

That is the $64 question, and for as long as I have been doing the defensive shotgun thing, there has been vigorous debate on this topic. This is how I think about the choices.



If your mission is shot and buck, and especially if the distances are close, like for defensive use inside a house, it is hard to beat a vent rib. The vent rib is economical, simple and fast, and has surely killed more animals and people than all the other systems combined.

If you mission is slugs, like my use in Alaska against grizzly bears, the red dot is the best choice for me. This gives me the greatest possible distance and lighting envelope to reliably place a slug.

Where it gets tricky is mixed use of buck and slugs. Jeff Cooper advocated the ghost ring, Louis Awerbuck and Randy Cain like/liked open rifle style sights. Something I found through experience, is a large ghost ring does not work for about half the population, including me. Ultimately, I believe there is no “right” answer for mixed use. I prefer a red dot because I also shoot a dot on my pistol, and I find the dot allows me better accuracy, regardless of my load. The red dot is more expensive, requires batteries, specialized mounting solutions, and takes user familiarity. Three gunners do great work with simple rifle sights, and ghost ring sights are seldom seen at 3 gun matches. Military and LE seem to gravitate to ghost ring sights, although I am not sure how much of that is an outgrowth if Jeff Cooper’s advocacy, that led Vang, Scattergun and Mossberg doing ghost ring sights.

I can see reasonable people disagreeing on the “best” sighting choice based on their mission, experience, and budget.

[mtnbkr]

So, what sighting systems would you guys suggest for a defensive shotgun understanding that the decision has been made to use a shotgun and not a carbine?

I have iron sights on mine (the one that came with the Remington barrel). They worked well in class and at the range. With them I managed a sub 1sec clean hit on a hostage drill with buckshot at 15yds from low ready. The "threat" was about the size of a softball right next to a larger "victim" target.

If I were to pick something else, I *might* go with Express sights because they *seem* like they would be quicker.

This article written by Darryl Bolke (Dagga Boy here), covers the different systems available today.

Chris

[Chuck Whitlock]

Other than being evolved with shotguns competitively for score and money for 20 plus years I'm a novice.

Some ranges will actually run you off if you want to use your "tactical" shotgun.

I give up.

This statement is a shining example of Dunning–Kruger.

[nalesq]

You find it difficult to understand how firing a payload of several hundred tiny pellets that spreads out to 10x the size of the intended target at 30 yards is different than hitting small vital structures buried deep within a person's anatomy with 8 or nine larger pellets that spread out to about the span of a man's hand at much closer range is a completely different phenomenon.

I’ve discovered that a lot of people have difficulty understanding this elementary difference. Even people who have some basic police training with a shotgun don’t seem to grasp the massive ballistic performance difference between birdshot and buckshot.

It’s maddening, and I suspect it’s because most people, even serious shotgun people, don’t actually do much shooting with buckshot. They instead simply assume what can be done with birdshot can be done with buckshot.

Even a lot of formal “tactical” shotgun training involves much more birdshot shooting than buckshot shooting, and most of that is on steel plates, which can lead one to think it’s a lot easier than it actually is to make solid hits with buck at close range, even with non-Flite controlled buck out of a cylinder bore.




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[nalesq]

So, what sighting systems would you guys suggest for a defensive shotgun understanding that the decision has been made to use a shotgun and not a carbine?

The red dot is the way to go on the gauge for for all the same reasons it’s the way to go with the carbine, particularly for close range engagements and in less than ideal lighting conditions.

The practical downside of red dots, besides their cost (though with the latest inexpensive but seemingly durable red dots like the PA micro, this is becoming less of an issue), is that most shotguns aren’t made to readily accept red dots in the way that an M4-type carbine is. So there’s a bit of fiddling and expense involved to mount them, and then there’s the issue of optimal cheek weld once the dot is mounted, since most shotgun stocks weren’t designed for using optics.

Once you get that cheek weld dialed in, though, shooting with the red dot is ridiculously easy.

Luckily, the latest accessories, such as the Aridus CROM and Magpul stock with easily adjustable LOP and comb height, make all of this much less burdensome nowadays.




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[Tensaw]

What nalesq just said plus, when your eyesight goes to pieces and you can’t even make out a big honkin’ front sight post, the red dot comes in pretty handy; just like on a pistol.

One thing that has been mostly glossed over in this thread is that having a good/ideal stance relative to the clay/bird is part of the deal with wingshooting. In a tactical environ, you can almost bet that your stance/footing is gonna be all kinds of bitched up. Ye olde red dot will come in pretty handy right about then.

One of the reasons I gravitate to the shotgun over the carbine is precisely because of all the reps I get running the gun in sub-optimal conditions whilst afield. I get waaaay more rounds thru the shotgun during duck season than I ever do through a rifle. But what that gets me is reps on the manual of arms and mounting the gun. I think the cross-over ends right there.

[Aray]

Other than being evolved with shotguns competitively for score and money for 20 plus years I'm a novice.

Some ranges will actually run you off if you want to use your "tactical" shotgun.

I give up.

How many rounds do you have downrange from your weak side, you know, switching hands?

[Borderland]

Some ranges are run by Boomer Fudd's who think guns are only for shooting clay pigeons and ducks.

The same Boomer Fudd's hated IDPA/USPSA at the range I was a member of and thought it was too dangerous, while they rest the barrel of their over under shotgun on their foot.

Luckily these Boomer Fudd's are going the way of the dinosaur and being replaced by people who understand that Gun Culture 2.0 doesn't give a shit about clay pigeons and ducks, and are buying guns for self defense and action shooting sports.

All that may be true but unless you live in NV or someplace like that you're going to need a place to train. The fact is a lot of ranges are private and run by boomers because they have most of the money. Let's not get too butt hurt over the fact that certain types of firearms or ammo won't be welcome at some ranges. Every person on the executive board at my range is over 55 so I guess they're all boomers.

You're just pissing into the wind on that one unless you have the money to open a range for action shooting sports or gun culture 2.0 whatever that is.

[Borderland]

How many rounds do you have downrange from your weak side, you know, switching hands?

What does it matter?

Takes both hands to properly operate a shotgun.

[mtnbkr]

What does it matter?

Takes both hands to properly operate a shotgun.

Shooting from behind barriers from your non-dominate side for example. If you were to take the shot from your dominate side, you would need to lean way out and expose yourself to the threat. Or, you switch the gun to the other side and operate it thusly, exposing less of your body to the threat.

There are multiple spots on the top floor of my house alone where shooting from my non-dominate side would be a safer choice.

Chris