pistol-training.com 2011 Endurance Test Gun

[ToddG]

My prediction is that you'll better your time with G17. Assuming for a second that my prediction is correct, would it be supporting a case that above dogmas aren't really dogmas?

It's impossible to do a truly fair comparison, because hopefully anyone who practices as much as I get to will be improving his overall skill regardless of gun. If I put 10,000 rounds through my G17 in the first month, I'd expect to be shooting that gun better than the P30 I haven't shot seriously in more than a year.

Having said that, there are some very noticeable differences at the outset.

I'm getting much faster followups on the 3x5, substantially faster. That suggests to me that the gun isn't moving as much in recoil. Is that because it has a higher bore axis, or because I shot 50k rounds of .45 last year and my grip/stance/technique improved?

My reloads are noticeably slower, and I am fumbling a higher percentage of reloads. The change in grip angle is causing me to bring the mag to the gun at the wrong angle. I've got some ideas that I hope will speed up my relearning on this, but for the moment my typical reload with the Glock is about a quarter second slower than it was with the P30.

Out of curiosity Todd, what are your F.A.S.T. records with each gun or any gun for that matter?

I don't have the records in front of me (I'm on my iPad in Sacramento and the database in on my computer back home). My personal lega (by the rules) best was 4.08 with the P30.

You say a ridiculous amount of ammo is on the way from ATK, so is that More than 50K?

Yes.

and what carry ammo do you plan to run in it?

124gr +p HST

Not having handled a G4 yet, has anyone found the interchangeable backstraps to be a benefit for those of us with stubby fingers?

I find it to be significantly better, especially combined with the dramatically improved mag catch button. Even better is the FBI (slightly) extended Gen4 mag button. Hopefully, we'll see a Vickers gen4 mag button before too long.

but let's be honest, can you tell the difference between a 4.10 FAST versus a 4.60 FAST?

Absolutely. You're talking about more than 10% reduction in overall time. That's incredibly significant. I've shot plenty of ~4.60 or better FASTs, but very few ~4.10. If you typically shoot a 10sec FAST, taking half a second off isn't nearly as big a difference compared to someone taking that same half a second off a 5sec FAST.

[YVK]

I'm getting much faster followups on the 3x5, substantially faster. That suggests to me that the gun isn't moving as much in recoil. Is that because it has a higher bore axis, or because I shot 50k rounds of .45 last year and my grip/stance/technique improved?

A dozen of full-speed circle-type drills on the 3x5, half with G17 and half with P30, should give an approximate idea here, provided you have any interest at all in figuring this part out, no?
Anyway, as many have said, the out-of-pocket nature of this endurance test is most impressive, Todd. I am looking forward to results and can't help but wonder if amount of P30s available on secondary market will be inversely proportional to F.A.S.T times you report with G17...

[ToddG]

I sincerely doubt my FAST times drive the marketplace.

The issue with the test as you propose it comes down to this: one gun is going to be the more immediately familiar because it's the one I'm practicing with all the time. The biggest issue would be the reset. Spending a lot of time shooting a Glock with its shorter reset is likely going to result in short stroking the P30 trigger until I took the time to reacquaint myself with it.

I could shoot the P30 for a month, test; then shoot the Glock for a month and test. But that still wouldn't be completely straightforward because I still have an extra month of dedicated speed practice behind the Glock.

Finally, I don't think I ever suggested that reset and bore axis were meaningless. What I've always maintained is that they are overblown by many shooters and instructors. You can absolutely become a highly skilled shooter with guns that have a longer reset, or have a higher bore axis.

FWIW, I was shooting borrowed G17s the past two weekends (Gen4 5-6 March in Atlanta, Gen3 this past weekend in Sacramento) and in neither case was I turning in super FAST times. My best in Atlanta was over 6 seconds, in fact. This weekend I got a 5.36 and a 5.23.

[John Ralston]

FWIW, I was shooting borrowed G17s the past two weekends (Gen4 5-6 March in Atlanta, Gen3 this past weekend in Sacramento) and in neither case was I turning in super FAST times. My best in Atlanta was over 6 seconds, in fact. This weekend I got a 5.36 and a 5.23.

That's it - I'm selling my Glock...

[YVK]

I sincerely doubt my FAST times drive the marketplace.

Don't underestimate this part - the whole marketplace may not change, but trends may. I have asked somewhere if HK has seen a change in sales after your endurance test with P30. There has been a considerable upsurge in interest among online shooting community, and while 5 or 10 dudes switching to P30 means little in a big scheme, these changes may cause a ripple effect.
Example: I've resisted getting P30 for a long time, but said "what the hell" - mostly after regular dudes like me started to post favorable reports. SecondsCount asked me to let him shoot mine, and now is considering getting one of his own...
The fact is that you're probably the only high-level shooter who objectively tracks performance and posts results outside of competition circuit - and this appeals to regular folks.

[Savage Hands]

Don't downplay your endurance tests Todd, as you and Apex Tactical were a huge factor in me even considering buying a M&P over continuing with Glocks. With such a positive experience with them, that's all I run now

[Chipster]

Honestly, I had a P30 before your tests and traded it off. After I found pistol-training.com I bought another one. You are driving the marketplace to some extent (and I would venture to say more than anyone else right now) and I think you will continue to as long as these tests continue. It is no different than when Handguns ran an article on the 357 sig versus the 357 magnum, I had a hell of a time finding a P229 after that article came out. Your website had over 2 billion visitors, and although I account for slightly over half of that, you still had a lot of people valuing your opinion.

Chip

[ToddG]

First contest: When Will It Stop?

Guess when the G17 gen4 will have its first stoppage.

(follow the link ... guesses in this thread DO NOT COUNT)

[turbolag23]

Guess when the G17 gen4 will have its first stoppage.

wow a lot of people are thinking its going to fail early.

[jslaker]

wow a lot of people are thinking its going to fail early.

My take is that it'll likely fail hard early or it'll run like a champ.

If the previous guns have been any indication, my personal expectation is that barring any sort of out of spec part (or assembly ), it should probably run a good 25-30k rounds without issue.