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Thread: Question about "Production"

  1. #21
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    FWIW outside the US in IPSC Production is the biggest division by far. While there are lots of Shadows and Tanfos there are a reasonanle number of other guns. And with our new rules I expect the other guns to gain in popularity at least a bit. That said there is a degree of fashion and follow the leader and if someone wins a world shoot or at a local level with a Arsenal Strike One or whatever you can expect to see an increase in the number of those being used.

    I see the same in idpa. Lots of guys with Shadows who would've been better served continuing to compete with their G19 and learning how to shoot it better before they tried to buy skill
    Welcome to Africa, bring a hardhat.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigT View Post
    FWIW outside the US in IPSC Production is the biggest division by far.
    IPSC Production is a different animal than USPSA Production, though - the capacity limit is 15 instead of 10. If Production here allowed 15 rounds, I probably wouldn't dabble in shooting Limited with my Production gun in my winter indoor outlaw league.

  3. #23
    As a general rule, it is the shooter not hardware that determines the outcome of matches. There are two big exceptions though, major scoring and magazine capacity. If Production had a 140mm magazine limitation, I would feel completely different about it.
    Likes pretty much everything in every caliber.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by olstyn View Post
    IPSC Production is a different animal than USPSA Production, though - the capacity limit is 15 instead of 10. If Production here allowed 15 rounds, I probably wouldn't dabble in shooting Limited with my Production gun in my winter indoor outlaw league.

    Yeah honestly if I had to shoot a 10 shot gun in competition it would be a 1911
    Welcome to Africa, bring a hardhat.

  5. #25
    Site Supporter Clusterfrack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GJM View Post
    In my travels, there are two main groups of Production shooters. New shooters and Stoeger fan boys mostly with their mags bullets out.
    Now that Cheby has gone Limited, all we need is Ben to go full time Limited and Production will be relegated to IDPA types.
    You need to travel more . My bullets are and will always be forward...

    I still think Production is the best game in USPSA. IMO, the two biggest differences in our game are Major vs. Minor scoring and Irons vs. Optics. Magazine capacity isn't that big a deal. Personally, I like the added strategy and risk of 10 round mags in Production.

    I could be perfectly happy if USPSA had only four divisions:

    Production
    Limited
    CO
    Open
    "BJJ is sort of like nonconsensual yoga"
    "You don’t really graduate from certain problems or certain things… like you always have to work on trigger control and pulling the trigger straight. " --Ben Stoeger 1/24/2018

  6. #26
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    1. Glock is definitely on decline in USPSA. According to the equipment survey of 2018 Nationals: In Production - CZ - 48%, Tanfo - 20%. Glock is 11%. The gun that dominated the market share for so long is now down to %11!
    https://uspsa.org/magazine/view//2019-00#page=40.

    2. Production is on decline in many areas not only by the total number of the participants but more importantly , by where the new shooter/talents are starting out. For the last couple years, all new blood I see came to CO and Open, It used to be Production. As matter of fact the biggest heat right now is in Open. Don't get me wrong, I think Production is a cool game, but the undeniable fact is timmies and people who did not want to mess with reloading their ammo do not enter the sport through Production any more. That should tell us something about the future. The increasing political pressure, on the other hand, could be a major factor here. If more states are restricted to the 10rd mags, it would have an impact on the sport.

    3. The cost of the guns are the least relevant factor in this sport if you want to be competitive. Ammo cost is. If you do not want to be competitive, it does not matter what division and gun you shoot. Get your P30LEM (Sorry, I had to troll the p-f timmies ) and go shoot Open and have fun. Nothing wrong with that. I am not saying it's impossible to be competitive with a Glock. Glock is a great Production pistol.... With the modified trigger and extra weight attached if you want to go full Vogel and shoot limited with it. What I am saying is the price of your competition gun is nothing compared to other cost. Do not make your decision based on money

    4. It is an interesting discussion about Limited vs Open vs Production and how different divisions could help us to be more rounded shooters and develop different skills. I think it is outside of the scope of thread though.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Clusterfrack View Post
    Magazine capacity isn't that big a deal.
    Tell me what you mean by this.
    Likes pretty much everything in every caliber.

  8. #28
    Site Supporter Clusterfrack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GJM View Post
    Tell me what you mean by this.
    I wasn't very clear. Here's the way I see it: Major vs. Minor scoring is the biggest difference in USPSA divisions because the targets are effectively a different size, so strategy ends up being very different.

    A red dot optic makes a pretty big difference too. I've heard some people say that if you're good enough with irons, it's not that big a difference, but I don't agree. It really speeds up how fast you can take very difficult shots, so strategy again ends up being quite different.

    I don't think 15 vs 10 round mags makes that huge a difference in strategy. But 20-30+ rounds vs. 10 changes the game in a big way because the time penalty for a miss is much lower. Consider how we approach a 15yd mini popper:
    10 round mags: be careful and hit the target on the first shot.
    21 round mags: shoot it on the move and if you miss a couple of times it's not that bad.

    So, 4 divisions don't quite cover the range, but I think that's what we should have.

    Open (Major/Optics/HiCap)
    Limited (Major/Irons/HiCap)
    CO (Minor/Optics/HiCap)
    Production (Minor/Irons/LowCap)
    Last edited by Clusterfrack; 01-06-2019 at 12:56 PM.
    "BJJ is sort of like nonconsensual yoga"
    "You don’t really graduate from certain problems or certain things… like you always have to work on trigger control and pulling the trigger straight. " --Ben Stoeger 1/24/2018

  9. #29
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    10 and 15 makes pretty big difference in strategy.

    15 round Production shooters take a much closer approach to Standard (Limited) shooters than they do to Classic (SS). 50 % more capacity is huge. Allows for a lot more shooting on the move , more risk and more aggression.

    Classic shooters have very different stage plans in IPSC to Production shooters, who have pretty similar stage plans to Standard shooters
    Welcome to Africa, bring a hardhat.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Clusterfrack View Post
    I wasn't very clear. Here's the way I see it: Major vs. Minor scoring is the biggest difference in USPSA divisions because the targets are effectively a different size, so strategy ends up being very different.

    A red dot optic makes a pretty big difference too. I've heard some people say that if you're good enough with irons, it's not that big a difference, but I don't agree. It really speeds up how fast you can take very difficult shots, so strategy again ends up being quite different.

    I don't think 15 vs 10 round mags makes that huge a difference in strategy. But 20-30+ rounds vs. 10 changes the game in a big way because the time penalty for a miss is much lower. Consider how we approach a 15yd mini popper:
    10 round mags: be careful and hit the target on the first shot.
    21 round mags: shoot it on the move and if you miss a couple of times it's not that bad.

    So, 4 divisions don't quite cover the range, but I think that's what we should have.

    Open (Major/Optics/HiCap)
    Limited (Major/Irons/HiCap)
    CO (Minor/Optics/HiCap)
    Production (Minor/Irons/LowCap)
    The shooting on the move part is what I see as the biggest difference between 10 and 140mm and completely changes the game for me. Ten means shoot and reload as you move, where 140mm means never stop moving.

    Fifteen is weak sauce, as it mostly just gives you extra make up shots but the ability to shoot multiple arrays without reloading. We have frequent 40+ round stages in AZ, and ten rounds is tedious for that kind of shooting.
    Likes pretty much everything in every caliber.

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