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Thread: The Accuracy trap

  1. #11
    Site Supporter JHC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GJM View Post
    In the “gray” is where you are shooting faster than you are currently comfortable, but achieving results greater than shooting within your comfort zone. The idea is to keep stretching your ability, so when you back off to your comfort zone, it is far higher than your previous comfort zone.

    I think most people are wired to be either fast or accurate, and their default is to do however they are wired. Joe, it sounds like you are wired to be accurate, so your biggest gains are likely to come from pushing speed. Others tend toward speed, and their opportunity is to increase accuracy. People who are wired to be accurate can sometimes preach accuracy in a moralistic way, but their opportunity is as great as the speed demon.
    Helpful expansion there, gracias. OK, so it turns out I do this quite a good bit then. For example I often drill the D2 to 3x5 and push to the 1.65-1.75 range where I don't consistently clean it. That's when my super power of rationalization takes consolation in the below the card hits that aren't off by too much. OTOH that is getting to a point where I'm not really seeing a front sight but hitting with index and recoil management I assume. Vision seems to be slowing down as is my 40 yard dash time.

    Does the bolded section mean results greater per USPSA scoring?
    Last edited by JHC; 12-28-2018 at 10:30 AM.
    "I realized all the mindset talk was useless without action and that with action, all the mindset talk was unnecessary." - Mike Pannone

  2. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by JHC View Post
    Helpful expansion there, gracias. OK, so it turns out I do this quite a good bit then. For example I often drill the D2 to 3x5 and push to the 1.65-1.75 range where I don't consistently clean it. That's when my super power of rationalization takes consolation in the below the card hits that aren't off by too much. OTOH that is getting to a point where I'm not really seeing a front sight but hitting with index and recoil management I assume. Vision seems to be slowing down as is my 40 yard dash time.

    Does the bolded section mean results greater per USPSA scoring?
    Here is how Robbie explains it. You keep pushing until you come off the rails. Then you analyze why you came off the rails, fix that, and push again until something else breaks down. That means that coming off the rails is a normal part of the learning process. Some people use coming off the rails as a stop sign, and pull back when they reach that point. Others solve the issue and keep marching on.
    Likes pretty much everything in every caliber.

  3. #13
    Site Supporter cornstalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GJM View Post
    Some people use coming off the rails as a stop sign, and pull back when they reach that point. Others solve the issue and keep marching on.
    Guilty!

    That's pure gold, by the way...

  4. #14
    Today, it was high 40’s and windy, which are not great conditions for me to push performance, as it is harder for me to grip the pistol hard. My wife and I decided to set up Pendulum from Steel Challenge, so we didn’t have to stake all our targets down in the wind, to practice pushing until the wheels fell off. We like Pendulum because it is one of the harder Steel Challenge stages, and it seems applicable to USPSA as well as SC. Here is Pendulum.



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    Shooting Carry Optics, a 100 percent run is 13.0 seconds for your best four out of five runs. That works out to 3.25 seconds a string. My best match performance for Pendulum is 12.95 seconds or just over 100 percent. That has been hard for me, so I was interested in testing the pushing approach to see if I could make progress.

    I started off trying to shoot one for one, focusing on sight and trigger. That wasn’t getting me to 3.25 a string, forgetting about any improvement. I decided to just shoot relaxed, letting my subconscious ability handle the mechanics of the shooting. I consciously was not worried about accuracy.

    After some messy runs, I was getting to 2.50 runs, with maybe one miss. To put that in perspective, four clean 2.50 runs would be 10.0 total, or 130 percent of the peak, hundred percent time. Soon, I was running 2.75-2.85 clean runs, and when I backed out to 3.0 second runs, I felt like I was taking a nap during shots. That is the kind of progress that I have often seen from pushing until the wheels fell off, and consciously not worrying about accuracy.

    Here is some video of that.



    Using the same method, my wife got down into the 3.50 range clean, so she also benefited. Here is some video of her.

    Likes pretty much everything in every caliber.

  5. #15

    accuracy

    Years ago, I found myself falling into this trap, but in a different way. Without a doubt we want and should strive to be more accurate (who doesn't want to draw and fire five shots into a postage stamp at 25 yards). Add speed, we have to find the balance, and push the envelope, until we find the fail point. Then stop, figure out the issue and work towards fixing it, only after that do we move forward, it is a goal not the end.
    As I said years ago, I was pushing and pushing myself, standing/plant, draw and engage. Then one day I had for me an epiphany. A few friends (officers) and me was working on some skills on the range, and had few "cover/concealment" things set up. We was pushing the envelope, on my turn I heard the buzzer, I "froze" drew and shot accelerated pairs, with an impressive time (back then). After I holstered, it hit me. I stood back looking right/left for a minute. They came up and asked what was wrong. I said, "you know I got it wrong." They looked at me puzzled. "If this was the street, I would either be dead or dying. I had cover here and concealment there (pointing) and I just drew and shot, instead of getting there first or same time.", I said.
    We debated it for a bit, and I said "we have to stop trying to just beat the clock and have to work in real world into it, or we will just run the clock. There is a time/place to do this, but if there is another attacker, I loose. We need to work in real world work into practice".
    This is just my opinion/decision, I am no expert, just food for thought.

  6. #16
    Site Supporter JHC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GJM View Post
    In the “gray” is where you are shooting faster than you are currently comfortable, but achieving results greater than shooting within your comfort zone. .
    @GJM somewhat of a hardware diversion but I've run into this in recent months upon shooting the G45. Whatever the voodoo of that pistol is in my hands but shooting standard measured exercises I started going "WTF?" and started pushing faster, then faster.

    Take F2S for example. I just observed this again last Sunday. Whereas in the past 2.15-2.25 were pretty good runs for consistent clean results, Sunday I was stringing multiple 1.80-1.90 clean runs together (using the A/B headbox mind you, not the 3x5). If there was a miss it was in the transition to the head when I got to .30 transition splits to the head and hit badly creasing the top of the cardboard barely. But 0.45 transitions were GTG.

    Spits on the body were .22-.25 which is actually blazing for me and they were all as in 100% alphas across quite a few reps. This has been epiphany-zone because historically when I'd push that sort of speed I'd throw some bad C's and even an occasional D which makes me curse between wretching.


    I said somewhat of a hardware diversion because I really stumbled onto this pushing with the G45 which lately I can't seem to shoot fast enough for the wheels to come off on this largish target (A zone) at 7 yards.
    "I realized all the mindset talk was useless without action and that with action, all the mindset talk was unnecessary." - Mike Pannone

  7. #17
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    This is an interesting subject. Since Speed vs. Accuracy is being discussed I'd like to point out what I see very often. Taking the time required for a given task escapes many shooters. I have been in countless classes where an unlimited time drill (shoot your best 10 round group) results in the worst performers typically finishing first. Many shooters don't really know how to set their cadence. Add in peer pressure or a timer and a significant number of shooters go way off the reservation.

    Training outside one's comfort zone needs to happen in a quantifiable way. A baseline performance ability needs to be established and then one can begin to expand the envelope.

    When practicing multiple shot drills a cadence pacer like counting for each shot can really help. e.g.
    1 thousand, 2 thousand, 3 thousand... (about a 1 sec split)
    1 and 2 and 3 and ...
    1,2,3...
    123... (approx. .25 sec split)
    You can keep yourself honest with a timer.

    Find out where you can go with acceptable accuracy/speed and then work on improving your capabilities.

  8. #18
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    Accuracy is the number one excuse from shooters who don't have much speed, and it's very common in LE circles as an excuse for poor performance on a timer. I usually hear it from individuals who can ace qual courses in their sleep and drill a nice tight hole through the center of the target on a qual course.

    Some food for thought, if you look at the last decade of USPSA production division and IDPA national champions, the top shooters are usually the most accurate AND the fastest shooters in the whole match.

    The "balance" of speed and accuracy is understanding what acceptable accuracy is for the goal you have, and what % of your shots need to fall within that goal.

    A defensive shooter may want 90% of their shots to fall within a 6-8" circle on an upper torso at 10 yards.

    A USPSA production shooter may want 90% of their shots to fall within an A zone at 10 yards.

    If you're shooting drills at this distance and getting 99% hits, you may need to add some speed. If you're only getting 80% hits, you may need to figure out why and make some adjustments (which may not necessarily mean slow down). If you're getting 30% hits you likely need to slow down.
    Formerly givo08.

  9. #19
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    Great insight. Another way to check these metrics is to look at your "pistol statistics" in USPSA once your results are loaded. As a general rule you wont win a match in minor divisions unless you are at at least 90% of "pct points shot (counting penalties)". Of course, exceptions apply when the match is extremely difficult (nationals) or a shooter is extremely fast (ie. Max, JJ). Conversely, if you are shooting over 95% and not winning, you need to shave time somewhere. This is not necessarily shooting faster, but possibly movement, transitions, reloads etc. Basically, if you are accurate enough to collect As on partial targets (hard cover/no-shoots), you need to find other ways to buy yourself time to shoot the As and keep your % at 90 or above.
    Last edited by jwhitt; 01-10-2019 at 11:56 PM.

  10. #20
    Site Supporter JHC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GJM View Post
    Here is how Robbie explains it. You keep pushing until you come off the rails. Then you analyze why you came off the rails, fix that, and push again until something else breaks down. That means that coming off the rails is a normal part of the learning process. Some people use coming off the rails as a stop sign, and pull back when they reach that point. Others solve the issue and keep marching on.
    BTW, it probably comes to no surprise but at Saturday's Level 1 Pistol at The Range Complex near Fayetteville/Bragg, NC the instructor was quite insistent that the students apply this approach in class. A couple with tight fist sized groups for 10 yard D1 and D2 drills were kicked in the tail to get out of their comfort zones.

    "If you ain't tapin' you ain't trainin' "
    "I realized all the mindset talk was useless without action and that with action, all the mindset talk was unnecessary." - Mike Pannone

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