Glock Grip and Trigger Interface

[HCM]

Thanks @GJM! I suspected something like this and part of my messing with grips in dry fire involved adding the "M" backstrap to one of my pistols. Unfortunately, my lane died today and there were no other lanes available, so I didn't get to test the pistol I added the backstrap to.

To your point, though, do you think adding a backstrap has a similar effect as putting more finger on the trigger? Preference between the two?

Try all 3 options, (bare, M, L).

Personally I find less “leftitis” with the large frame (45/10mm) Glocks.

[peterb]

Here is something I have wondered about with iron sights. Let’s say your Glock shoots one inch left at seven yards. Does that mean it is also one inch left at 25 and 100 yards, or is it one inch at 7 and more and more as the distance increases. If it is one inch left, for example, at all distances, that is easy to adjust for. If it is a shank, and ever increasing, then that is not easy to fix with sight alignment.

I thought it was exactly the opposite. A consistent angular error — 1” at 7 yards, 2” at 14 yards, etc. — should be easy to correct by changing the sight geometry. A constant offset — 1” at all distances — is an inconsistent angular error, and can only be corrected at one distance by adjusting the sights.

[ASH556]

I'm getting about ready to throw in the towel and put adjustable sights on these guns (or just switch to a 1911 like I initially wanted to. The problem is I don't know what my path forward is to additionally diagnose or correct the issue. I've tweaked my grip such that I'm gaining much more consistency, but today's session shows that whether I cram my whole finger into the trigger guard, or use just the tip I still get the same results.

5rds @ 7yds whole finger:



5 additional rounds @ 7yds, just the tip:



I took both my 251 and my 505 pistols with me today. I started with 505 wearing the "M" backstrap and 251 plain. Then I switched them. Regardless of backstrap or not, more finger or less finger, and with the rear sights absolutely centered in both slides, 251 still hits mostly good for elevation, but dead left and 505 hits closer to center, but still a bit left, and also high.

Now, correct me if you think I'm wrong here, I really want to know: If it was a flaw in my grip, trigger press, etc, wouldn't it change as I changed backstraps and finger placement? Doesn't the fact that the guns hit in their respective same places (251 left, 505 high and left) make it reasonable to make a hardware change (sights or even pistols altogether)?

More evidence:

10 @ 7yds, 505 with "M" backstrap:


10 @ 7yds, 505 no backstrap, but more finger:


10 @ 7yds, 251 with "M" backstrap:


10 @ 25yds, 251 with "M" backstrap (same trend, dead left):


10 @ 25yds, 505 no backstrap, more finger (same trend, less left than 251, but still left, and high):

[cornstalker]

Don’t know if this will help or not...

When I got my first 19x I noticed that the rear sight was off to the right in the dovetail. I asked my gunsmith to center it, so he did but told me that it might cause a problem. He had checked it with a laser bore sighter and it appeared to be mechanically aligned as it came from the factory. I went ahead and shot it and it was indeed off to the right. Had to go back and have it pushed back to where it was originally.

Have you tried using a laser sighter to check the mechanical alignment?

[BN]

Here is something I have wondered about with iron sights. Let’s say your Glock shoots one inch left at seven yards. Does that mean it is also one inch left at 25 and 100 yards, or is it one inch at 7 and more and more as the distance increases.

Ash's groups are 1" left at 7 yards and several inches left at 25 yards. He needs to take a hammer and whack those sights.

I have I think 7 Glock 17's. Gens 2, 3 and 4. They all shoot different. I got a lens implant in my master eye and it changed the way I looked at the sights and I have had to adjust most of them. Last evening I put a set of adjustable Dawson sights on my Gen4. When I shot it, it hit high and left. I didn't adjust my grip or trigger finger. I took a screwdriver and adjusted the sights.

Elevation on my G-17's is different. Some take a taller front sight to get it to hit the tip of the front sight at 25 yards. If your sights are adjusted to hit dead center at 7 yards, then it will hit high at 25 yards.

We probably don't want to get into trajectory charts.

[MGW]

Is there a difference in POI when shooting for speed at 7 or 10 yards as opposed to shoot8ng slow fire? Have you shot groups supported? I was looking back through your training journal and it looks like your groups with Glocks have always been a bit left. Even looking at your Dot Torture targets if you draw a line through the center of the target there is a definite left bias. And it’s very consistent.

I feel your pain by the way. It’s a weird quirk of Glocks and I’ve yet to find an explanation that really solves the problem. I think it’s just as reasonable to opine that it’s because of the location of the connector in the pistol. The momentum created when the connector releases the striker causes a slight shift of the sights left. It’s most evident during slow fire. So finger placement or grip force on the pistol is in an attempt to overcome the mechanical force of the trigger system. It explains how consistent the left grouping is on some Glocks.

Of course I’m probably completely full of shit too.

[HCM]

Ash's groups are 1" left at 7 yards and several inches left at 25 yards. He needs to take a hammer and whack those sights.

I have I think 7 Glock 17's. Gens 2, 3 and 4. They all shoot different. I got a lens implant in my master eye and it changed the way I looked at the sights and I have had to adjust most of them. Last evening I put a set of adjustable Dawson sights on my Gen4. When I shot it, it hit high and left. I didn't adjust my grip or trigger finger. I took a screwdriver and adjusted the sights.

Elevation on my G-17's is different. Some take a taller front sight to get it to hit the tip of the front sight at 25 yards. If your sights are adjusted to hit dead center at 7 yards, then it will hit high at 25 yards.

We probably don't want to get into trajectory charts.

[ASH556]

^^^LOL!

For real tho, this is me lying in bed at 11:30 and my wife asking me what I'm doing still on my phone and me embarrassed to tell her I'm reviewing target pics and trying to figure out why I can't hit the middle of the dot, lol

[Kevin B.]

I reached out to my friend @Kevin B. for some 1911 advice and his advice was esentially, "don't do it."

I think if you go back a reread what I wrote, you will see that I said you should really consider a decision to move to the 1911. I went on to say - and I am paraphrasing myself - that moving to the 1911 to fix issues with 25 yard accuracy was a pretty expensive solution. I further opined that based on the limited information available via the internet, I was of the opinion that the bulk of your issues were shooter-induced and if were I in your situation, I would address correct the shooter-induced issues rather than opting for a hardware solution.

Nothing that you have posted since our conversation changes my opinion. In fact, your subsequent posts have only reinforced it.

[GJM]

Stop beating yourself up over this. Not every gun shoots to the same place, and not everyone’s eyes and sights interact the same way. For today, I would give that rear sight a nudge right and carry-on. Switching platforms will be a big distraction as you get everything sorted out. Every week or so you can shoot for zero confirmation and see if things are changing.