Glock Grip and Trigger Interface

[GJM]

Thanks @GJM! I suspected something like this and part of my messing with grips in dry fire involved adding the "M" backstrap to one of my pistols. Unfortunately, my lane died today and there were no other lanes available, so I didn't get to test the pistol I added the backstrap to.

To your point, though, do you think adding a backstrap has a similar effect as putting more finger on the trigger? Preference between the two?

I like a smaller grip on a fairly large grip like the Glock. However, my wife and I think our draw is faster with a Gen 3 as you need to stick less finger in.

Perhaps try a medium on a Gen 4/5 and see if it grabs you as better.

[Clobbersaurus]

Hmmm. Almost always, if I am having trouble getting my pistol to group, I find re-focusing on sight alignment, vs sight picture, helps. Also just running the trigger straight back.

I also tell myself to stop being a Jackass. That mostly works too.

[SC_Dave]

Thanks @GJM! I suspected something like this and part of my messing with grips in dry fire involved adding the "M" backstrap to one of my pistols. Unfortunately, my lane died today and there were no other lanes available, so I didn't get to test the pistol I added the backstrap to.

To your point, though, do you think adding a backstrap has a similar effect as putting more finger on the trigger? Preference between the two?

I like a smaller grip on a fairly large grip like the Glock. However, my wife and I think our draw is faster with a Gen 3 as you need to stick less finger in.

Perhaps try a medium on a Gen 4/5 and see if it grabs you as better.

This strikes a chord with me. I have a tendency to miss left, not low left, just left, especially at speed. I recently swapped the L backstrap on my G17-5 for the M even though I have very big hands (2X glove size). This allowed me to put more finger on the trigger comfortably. With a sample size of just one 200 round range session in which I had way less left biased hits really has me thinking. I would like to put in more time before I make a determination but the result I've seen so far lends itself to this line of thought.
SCD

[EJO]

Ash,

Try getting back to basics, load 10 live rounds and 7 dummy rounds (better yet have someone load them for you). Then fire your ten rounds and see what that front sight is doing. This drill always keeps me honest and does wonders for my guys every spring during quals. Just a thought...

[randyflycaster]

I am a bit confused about the main point of this thread. I was shooting to the right. (I am a left-handed shooter.) My instructor at the time told me to adjust the rear sight. That was the last lesson I took with him. I am not saying that his idea was wrong. I am saying that I wanted to keep experimenting and trying to find out what my shooting defect was.

Certainly, shooting is very expensive, which is why I took a break from it. (I can't afford shooting skeet and a 9mm.) So, if someone decides to move the rear sight I can see why.

I am just wondering what the top shooters do. Do they move their rear sights?

Randy

[ASH556]

I am a bit confused about the main point of this thread. I was shooting to the right. (I am a left-handed shooter.) My instructor at the time told me to adjust the rear sight. That was the last lesson I took with him. I am not saying that his idea was wrong. I am saying that I wanted to keep experimenting and trying to find out what my shooting defect was.

Certainly, shooting is very expensive, which is why I took a break from it. (I can't afford shooting skeet and a 9mm.) So, if someone decides to move the rear sight I can see why.

I am just wondering what the top shooters do. Do they move their rear sights?

Randy

The point of the thread is to determine what mechanics a person ought to look at changing to center their groups if their sights are centered, but hits are consistently off-center. More specifically, we're not talking about a beginner who creates a low left shotgun pattern at 7 yds. Not saying I'm great or anything, but there's also a reasonable degree of consistency to the targets I posted in the OP. Back in 2014 after taking Vickers' Advanced Pistol Marksmanship and having him tell me in person, in addition to other folks here that I trust tell me to move my sights, I did. Sometimes, though, when you take a shortcut, it limits your overall progress. I'm now in the stage of going back to that place and experimenting with other things (grip, finger placement, etc) to see if I can get it right this time without the shortcut.

As far as what the top shooters do, I don't know about guys like Vogel, but I know @GJM has referenced centering the rear sight on his Glocks. I also know that @Kevin B. who has posted some amazing bullseye targets with a Glock advocates for a centered rear as well.

That may be where some of the confusion is coming in:

Some of the comments/responses are in reference to new/less skilled shooters having inconsistencies and printing lateral deviation. The other side is experienced shooters ( @psalms144.1 , @LSP552 ) who are great, consistent shooters, but still see off-axis hits even though the groups (consistency) are tight.

[vcdgrips]

FWIW- I know of at least one large metro pd (1000+ officers) whose default set up for right hand shooters is the rear sight set at one credit card width to the right. Seems to work fairly well at keeping folks centered out to 25 if the other mechanics are generally in place.

Works for me as well across my Gen 1-3 Glock stable ( G1/G17, G2/G19, G3/G34x2, G3 G35x2).

YMMV greatly.

PS- Thx GJM re your insight on this platform. I really appreciate it and you (and Ms. C) have saved me a ton of time, talent and treasure by plowing the ground first.

[41magfan]

The goal of shooting should be hitting. Having the ability to tweak your sighting system (irons, red-dots, scopes) to achieve proper muzzle orientation is a means to an end; nothing more - nothing less. Having a rear sight centered in the slide is an irrelevant "end" that serves no purpose other than a cosmetic one.

I have a friend with an old 2-pin G17, that to achieve a proper "zero" (POA=POI) the rear sight is positioned so far to the right, the base of the sight is flush with the slide. For whatever reason (I really could care less "why") that's what it takes to zero that pistol with those sights and there is nothing wrong with the huge number of shooters that are able to hit with it just fine. The same thing can be said for my red-dots and scopes. I could care less where the dot and/or cross-hairs are in relation to their mechanical "center" internally, so long as I can achieve a proper zero and effectively use any compensation features.

I can only imagine the looks you'd get if you were to show up at Camp Perry and tell all those guys they were doing something wrong if every one of those Bomars weren't mechanically centered.

[GJM]

What is often unclear, is what is an issue with that particular gun, what is your eyes, what is the ambient light, and what is your technique. Regardless, I zero iron sights to my eyes and load. It feels better psychologically to me when a rear iron sight in near center, but as you point out, we have no idea what our red dot or scope is set at.

Here is something I have wondered about with iron sights. Let’s say your Glock shoots one inch left at seven yards. Does that mean it is also one inch left at 25 and 100 yards, or is it one inch at 7 and more and more as the distance increases. If it is one inch left, for example, at all distances, that is easy to adjust for. If it is a shank, and ever increasing, then that is not easy to fix with sight alignment.

[41magfan]

If the one inch of deviation at 7 yards is caused by a contradiction in alignment between the sights and the muzzle, then obviously the deviation will predictably increase with distance. If someone is so inclined, you can mathematically calculate this deviation at any given distance just like you can with elevation discrepancies and front sight height.