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Thread: Natural index?

  1. #1

    Natural index?

    How important is a natural index .vs a learned index? I hope I am using the right words...

    What I mean specifically, is that I find that Glocks point high for me. It keeps showing up in dry practice. I don't have that problem with HK's, 1911's or Sig P320 and P229. I love everything else about the Glock, so I am wondering if this is something I should train my way through, or is it wiser to go with something that points more naturally for me?

    What training steps should be taken to solve this efficiently?

  2. #2
    Hokey / Ancient JAD's Avatar
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    Sticking with one gun for a while fixed it for me. I have a small issue in the first hour or two of switching between Glock and 1911, and it goes away.
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  3. #3
    Hoplophilic doc SAWBONES's Avatar
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    Dunno about disparity of importance of the point of aim (POA) with one type of gun vs. another.

    I do know that your "natural" POA can be trained or modified, and thereafter remain consistent, which to me suggests that you should find a pattern of pistol that is reliable plus acceptably accurate and precise, and which you can shoot shoot well, and then emphasize that pattern of pistol in your training.

    Best.
    "Therefore, since the world has still... Much good, but much less good than ill,
    And while the sun and moon endure, Luck's a chance, but trouble's sure,
    I'd face it as a wise man would, And train for ill and not for good." -- A.E. Housman

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by SAWBONES View Post
    Dunno about disparity of importance of the point of aim (POA) with one type of gun vs. another.

    I do know that your "natural" POA can be trained or modified, and thereafter remain consistent, which to me suggests that you should find a pattern of pistol that is reliable plus acceptably accurate and precise, and which you can shoot shoot well, and then emphasize that pattern of pistol in your training.

    Best.
    Maybe that's what I should have called it. Thanks.

    Specifically, when I draw to a sight picture, the front sight is naturally high. (Dot is at top or out the top of the window) I have to focus on pointing it down.
    Last edited by cornstalker; 12-24-2018 at 03:28 PM.

  5. #5
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    When you draw imagine a magnet on the tip of the barrel going directly to where you want to point on target. It's OK, normal and natural to use visual reference to line up sights, slide and use feel to adjust and correct as you push the gun towards the proper aiming point. The goal is to be ready to fire as soon as the gun stops at the end of the draw.

    Now...

    If you have to correct your upper body, hips that's and make drastic adjustments that more of a problem and something you can train out of. One way is by doing dry fire and just seeing where you naturally draw too with your eyes closed, then looking to see where you are pointing. If you are off, adjust your feet, hips, find what feels both natural and has you pointed in the right direction. Once you find out where it's at, assume that position.
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  6. #6
    Deadeye Dick Clusterfrack's Avatar
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    A while back (after I lost interest in 1911s) I shot Glocks almost exclusively. When I switched to a p320 for USPSA, I assumed that the difference in grip angle would be a big deal, and I switched to the p320c for carry. After putting in a ton of time with the 320s, I picked up a G19 off my safe shelf and found that the difference in grip angle was in fact not a big deal. My index for both guns was identical, in part because support hand position is similar on most guns. I wish I had figured this out before spending a ton of cash on carry guns I didn't need.

    For me a good vertical index is easy to achieve with pretty much any gun. However, differences in grip size and shape can cause big differences in lateral index, which is much more problematic. If the gun doesn't fit your hand, it's easy for your grip get jacked up--there's not one single lateral NPA, and the sights won't line up consistently. For example, I find M&Ps to have a very ambiguous grip, and that's one of the reasons I do not like them.
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  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Clusterfrack View Post
    If the gun doesn't fit your hand, it's easy for your grip get jacked up--there's not one single lateral NPA, and the sights won't line up consistently. For example, I find M&Ps to have a very ambiguous grip, and that's one of the reasons I do not like them.
    I had the same issue with the VP9, which was a drag since it’s so freaking good in so many other ways.


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  8. #8
    Hokey / Ancient JAD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clusterfrack View Post
    . However, differences in grip size and shape can cause big differences in lateral index, which is much more problematic. If the gun doesn't fit your hand, it's easy for your grip get jacked up--there's not one single lateral NPA, and the sights won't line up consistently. For example, I find M&Ps to have a very ambiguous grip, and that's one of the reasons I do not like them.
    I am in violent agreement with this. I shoot thin grips on a 1911 much better than regular with the metric being time to first shot from the holster.
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  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by cornstalker View Post
    I should train my way through
    Quote Originally Posted by cornstalker View Post
    I should train my way through
    Quote Originally Posted by cornstalker View Post
    I should train my way through



    I just had to go through this, going from CZs to Glocks because of logistics of Carry Optics division. Pretty annoying at first, as I have issues in both vertical and horizontal planes. Gets better with dry fire. I still suck at one handed presentations but it's all doable. Considering peculiarities of Glock's frame, monogamy here is highly recommended.
    Doesn't read posts longer than two paragraphs.

  10. #10
    I always shot Glocks high.

    After 10 years trying to adapt to it, i just moved on - which worked okay

    For me hand size, grip issues etc made it a serious issues. If it doesn’t fit it doesn’t fit. Many other options around.

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