P series LEM “difficulty”, is it all in the mind? A very in-depth look at LEM.

[JonInWA]

The HK rep is wrong. The initial pull weight is determined by two springs. The first is the TRS and the second is the FPB spring. If you don’t believe me, put a V1 next to a V2.

You're absolutely correct (no surprise to you). More detailed discussions with HK (from whom I'm receiving absolutely superb support), carefully re-reviewing this thread and the input from other p-f participants, and some great discussions with TooSixy from the HKPro forum have ascertained that the OEM configuration of my 2014 production P30L V1 is that it has the standard weight Firing Pin Block Spring (209962), the standard weight Trigger Rebound/Return Spring (234389), and the standard weight (12 lb) Hammer Spring (214300).

Based on the excellent suggestions and detailed advice I've received from here, HK and TooSixy, I'm going to replace the OEM standard weight Trigger Rebound/Return Spring with the newer medium weight one (234773), and keep the other (FPBS and HS) OEM standard weight springs. Ideally, this will go a long way towards providing me with a more shootable LEM, while preserving the threat management characteristics of the system-providing a slightly heavier, more resistant initial triggerpull weight and minimizing the initial pull and wall pull differences; providing more of a single-stage pull experience.

I'll see how that plays out; alternatively, I can see replacing the OEM standard weight Firing Pin Block Spring with the lighter 209296, and/or going with the heavier Trigger Rebound/Reset Spring 234405.

I'll keep everyone posted on the results, my perceptions, observations, and quantifiable results. I'm optimistic that this will be icing on the LEM cake.

Best, Jon

[Balisong]

Thanks Jon I look forward to reading your experiences. But I always had the impression that the V1 P30 came with the light FPBS. Guess I need to brush up on all those springs again. I got a used V2 I want to convert to a V1 for a while.

[JonInWA]

Thanks Jon I look forward to reading your experiences. But I always had the impression that the V1 P30 came with the light FPBS. Guess I need to brush up on all those springs again. I got a used V2 I want to convert to a V1 for a while.

Apparently some did come with the light FPBS, others (like mine, a 2014 production P30L) came with the standard one; the HK armorer was able to check the production records when he gave me the answer based on my P30L's specific serial/production date. It's my impression that the later-production pieces are more likely to come with the lighter one, but I'll have to check on that, as I'm not absolutely certain; Coyote 41 or TwoSixy can probably give a definitive answer.

Best, Jon

[Coyote41]

I’ve never seen a factory pistol with a light FPBS in any HK series. That doesn’t mean they don’t exist. I just have never taken a slide apart and seen one. Of course, I don’t do the P30 thing anymore, it was an ackward size and I have since switched to the 2000 and P30L.

HK customer service is generally very good (despite internet rumor), but I have gotten wrong information from them once before.


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[Kirk]

So I'm going to shamelessly bump this thread and ask a few questions. I'm new to the LEM, and am in the process of converting a second P30 (DA/SA) to V4.1 LEM. Everywhere seems out of the LEM elbow spring (I even put up a WTB thread in the non firearms forum ), and I'm in need of one. HK customer service is out of stock, as is HK Parts. A couple of questions:

How long are parts typically out of stock with HK-USA? I've seen certain parts being discussed as out of stock often at HK Pro, but just curious what the normal wait times are.

What spare parts do you guys recommend having on hand? Not sure of the various maintenance cycles on these guns, nor what are potential problem areas (example: CZs TRS that break often)

[GJM]

So I'm going to shamelessly bump this thread and ask a few questions. I'm new to the LEM, and am in the process of converting a second P30 (DA/SA) to V4.1 LEM. Everywhere seems out of the LEM elbow spring (I even put up a WTB thread in the non firearms forum ), and I'm in need of one. HK customer service is out of stock, as is HK Parts. A couple of questions:

How long are parts typically out of stock with HK-USA? I've seen certain parts being discussed as out of stock often at HK Pro, but just curious what the normal wait times are.

What spare parts do you guys recommend having on hand? Not sure of the various maintenance cycles on these guns, nor what are potential problem areas (example: CZs TRS that break often)

A trigger return spring and the special pliers to install it is all the spare parts I think are necessary. I believe 20,000 rounds is the first service interval.

Maybe this is a message you should leave your P30 in DA/SA, or at least compare your performance closely before converting.

[JonInWA]

So I'm going to shamelessly bump this thread and ask a few questions. I'm new to the LEM, and am in the process of converting a second P30 (DA/SA) to V4.1 LEM. Everywhere seems out of the LEM elbow spring (I even put up a WTB thread in the non firearms forum ), and I'm in need of one. HK customer service is out of stock, as is HK Parts. A couple of questions:

How long are parts typically out of stock with HK-USA? I've seen certain parts being discussed as out of stock often at HK Pro, but just curious what the normal wait times are.

What spare parts do you guys recommend having on hand? Not sure of the various maintenance cycles on these guns, nor what are potential problem areas (example: CZs TRS that break often)

After shooting LEM fairly intensively for a year+, I think it's a great threat management action, in that it gives you more time to get off the trigger if shooting an individual turns out not to be warranted, at least in the immediate instant. In terms of shootability, it'll lag behind SFA, DA/SA, SA and probably DAO. Just something to keep in mind; I don't know what your intended use with it is.

Unless you have Todd's shooting genes (and acumen), you're likely to be a bit frustrated and disappointed if you shoot in in, say, an IDPA match. In reading the thread, an others on p-f, you'll see that a number of well respected shooters, like GJM and Enel for various reasons have preferentially gone back to DA/SA HKs after running LEMs. Don't get me wrong, LEM is not a kludge system, or something requiring years and a ninja master instructor to become competent with, but it is less purely shootable in that it's inherently intrinsically slower, particularly for your first shot than SA and SFA, and there's less trigger kickback feel for the initial portion of the triggerpull, which can flummox shooters.

My P30L with V1 LEM is currently at HK, being fitted with the new(er) medium strength trigger return spring, and possibly a light firing pin block spring might find it's way into the gun (but we'll see on that). I took a very hard look at the 4.1 mod, but discussions here and with others have led me to conclude that the juice provided doesn't justify the squeeze; it's relatively expensive, and the actual perceived and quantitative results are probably negligible (at least in my case). Additionally, the 4.1 shortens the triggerpull distance, which is a significant feature of the LEM system.

There is no doubt in my mind that shooting the LEM system has made me a better shooter, both with my LEM equipped HK and in general with other platforms. What I suggest is that you think through and be able to articulate your needs for LEM, and for the specific LEM variant best for you. I'll suggest starting out with V1 or V2 first, and then evolve from there based on your empirical experience with LEM. 4.1 just might be your huckleberry, but it isn't where I'd personally start.

For spare parts, there really isn't much needed-these things are exceptionally well designed with quality materials. An appropriate 7/64ths roll-pin punch ($3.00 'Murrican from the HK webshop) so you don't bollox things up when removing roll pins (or "clamping pins," as HK terms 'em) is certainly nice to have https://us.hkwebshop.com/hkstorefron...Punch/p/708364, and perhaps a spare RSA (but as GJM mentioned, the RSA replacement interval if pretty far out there), and maybe a spare roll pin or two (in case of deformity or inadvertent loss), and perhaps a spare trigger rebound/return spring (and the special installation pliers needed). If anything else breaks, which is unlikely, you'd probably want to ship it to HK for warranty replacement/repair anyhow.

I'd place obtaining a quality holster, magazine pouch, ammunition, training and any event use fees at a higher priority than building a stockpile of spare parts for these pistols.

Best, Jon

[Notorious E.O.C.]

I have been monitoring this thread with interest. I transitioned to the v1 LEM last summer, moving away from the PPQ. My reasoning was primarily that I wanted a hammer I could ride with my thumb while reholstering AIWB. I'm also a paddle mag release partisan (while acknowledging that needing more than 16 rounds to solve a civilian gunfighting problem is highly unlikely, and thus reload speed shouldn't be a primary factor in decision-making...). The LEM gives me the reholstering safety factor with a trigger that is consistent and, if not PPQ-light-and-fast, at least acceptable for my low level of skill. Thus far, I have about 1,500 combined rounds though P30, P2000, and HK45c. I've noticed the vertical stringing under speed that others have referenced and am trying to work my way out of that pit with more intensive dry-fire practice.

[JonInWA]

You're absolutely correct (no surprise to you). More detailed discussions with HK (from whom I'm receiving absolutely superb support), carefully re-reviewing this thread and the input from other p-f participants, and some great discussions with TooSixy from the HKPro forum have ascertained that the OEM configuration of my 2014 production P30L V1 is that it has the standard weight Firing Pin Block Spring (209962), the standard weight Trigger Rebound/Return Spring (234389), and the standard weight (12 lb) Hammer Spring (214300).

Based on the excellent suggestions and detailed advice I've received from here, HK and TooSixy, I'm going to replace the OEM standard weight Trigger Rebound/Return Spring with the newer medium weight one (234773), and keep the other (FPBS and HS) OEM standard weight springs. Ideally, this will go a long way towards providing me with a more shootable LEM, while preserving the threat management characteristics of the system-providing a slightly heavier, more resistant initial triggerpull weight and minimizing the initial pull and wall pull differences; providing more of a single-stage pull experience.

I'll see how that plays out; alternatively, I can see replacing the OEM standard weight Firing Pin Block Spring with the lighter 209296, and/or going with the heavier Trigger Rebound/Reset Spring 234405.

I'll keep everyone posted on the results, my perceptions, observations, and quantifiable results. I'm optimistic that this will be icing on the LEM cake.

Best, Jon

First, my utmost appreciation to everyone that I worked with at HK on this-Customer Service Rep Tommy, Armorers Ryan and Daniel, and a female Customer Service Rep who's name unfortunately I can't recall. They were unfailingly polite, professional and genuinely interested and uniformly supportive in my quest-and that covers about a month of repeated calls and detailed discussions. And after this resolution, they stressed if I needed to revisit or go deeper, they were there for me. THAT'S superb customer service and aftermarket support-literally some of the best in the business I've encountered. Oh, and one other thing-the pistol was shipped to HK on Monday, and they had it back to me on Thursday. HK also removed some residual movement that remained with the Small backstrap at the top of the tang where it joined the frame (it was of no real operational consequence, but a bit irritating, and HK was happy to resolve it; apparently there may be some minor play due to the Small backstrap mold, or possibly incurred during the backstrap plastic's curing after molding.

Equally, thanks to Coyote41 here and TooSixy at the HK Pro forum, whose advice (and patience) over the past month or so as I dived deep into improving my V1 LEM was invaluable.

So-Where did I end up? My goal was to have a more "shootable" HK P30L V1 LEM, but without sacrificing the threat-management tenants of the LEM action-particularly the long pull length before firing. More shootable for me I determined (with much help from others, definitely including on this thread here) was to be a heavier, more resistant trigger pull, with the desire for the triggerpull characteristics to be transformed if possible from a dual stage (initial/wall-break) into more of a single-stage pull, with a more continuous/unbroken pull from inception to break. In other words, mitigating against the initial "flying through the air" initial pull (with its inherent lack of feel/ tactile feedback, then being met with "hitting the wall" towards the end of the long pull process. I am satisfied with both the overall LEM triggerpull length and the reset as it comes from HK. My premise is that this set-up will serve well as a threat-management tool, but be more shootable for other venues, such as IDPA. Yeah, I want my cake and be able to eat it too...

My P30L V1 came with standard-weight springs uniformly for the hammer spring, the trigger return/rebound spring, and the firing pin block spring. At this point, after much discussion and input from multiple parties, HK only needed to change one spring to meet my goal (or to take the first good-faith stab at it): the standard weight trigger return/rebound spring was replaced with the newer HK medium-weight trigger rebound/return spring (234773). Coyote41 has additionally provided me with the lighter-weight firing pin block spring (209296), which I may experiment with later; I gave HK a free hand in putting one in mine when it was there, but they felt that there simply wouldn't be a discernible benefit from it, and chose to keep the OEM standard-weight FPBS (209962) in place. I may experiment with it in the future (thanks again, Coyote41).

Dry fire with the new set-up reveals that the medium-weight TRS has indeed favorably (for me, at least) changed the triggerpull characteristics, making it somewhat similar to that on my Beretta 92D DAO, upgraded with Wilson Combat improved triggerbar and springs. The triggerpull feels to be about 6 to 6.5 lbs., (very similar to that on my upgraded 92D) and the weight gives me a much improved triggerpull feel, in that more weight/resistance is provided, giving, at least to me, more control throughout the triggerpull process. The differentiation between the initial pull and the wall is significantly muted. I'm impressed, and plan on running the pistol in next Saturday's IDPA match.

Essentially, I have a bit of a hybrid LEM between V1 and V2, with some of the characteristics of the V4/V4.1 (but without the triggerpull shortening of the 4.1, which is somewhat expensive, and requires more parts, for reportedly incremental results). Call mine with the medium-weight TRS a (and otherwise standard-weight FPBS and HS) a V1.5, perhaps.

I'll continue to keep everyone posted as I go further, but at this point I'm pretty impressed-and appreciative.

Best, Jon

[vsdtrek]

Many thanks for the detailed thoughts Jon and hope to hear more about how this goes. I decided to go all in on the LEM with my HKs as the concept of the one trigger pull with hammer just makes sense to me. Sold my original V3 P30 and purchased a V1 recently. In comparing my V1 P30 vs my UPS V7, the P30 is noticeably different with the pull before the wall. In reading through this entire thread with the many great posts, I can see where some modifications with that medium spring may be helpful without changing the overall intention (i.e., long pull) of the system. I have no thoughts of it ever being as effective to shoot with as a VP9 but I'm looking at it from the self-defense standpoint and perhaps being a bit better for me before and even after a situation.

At some point, I'd love to try a USPc with the LEM.

PS - I think HK's CS team is great too.

Best regards,

V