P series LEM “difficulty”, is it all in the mind? A very in-depth look at LEM.

[Coyote41]

Or “ An alternative philosophy on the LEM trigger”.

Yes, another LEM thread because I could not find a suitable home for this last night. In short, I’m on a parts swapping/gunsmithing quest to make the LEM a “self-decocking TDA” instead of what most people consider it, a weird DAO. Warning: long post

This applies to the P series pistol only. It may apply to the USP series, but I haven’t investigated it yet. To start, I have been shooting the LEM trigger on the HK P series for years, but recently switched a pistol back to V3 (TDA). The result was a love/hate trigger that raised a lot of thoughts and questions. The comparisons made here are between a single pistol.

Why is the LEM difficulty all mental? The pull and reset of the SA are no different between V3 and V1. The only difference is the V1 trigger will return all the way out AFTER the reset.

Therefore, The LEM trigger should be treated as a TDA pistol that automatically decocks if allowed. Please consider this, and maybe revisit the LEM and see if this mentality helps. Next I’m going to go through how to set-up the LEM trigger that makes the most sense with this philosophy.

1. The DA pull vs the LEM pull. In this particular example, the DA is surprisingly smooth. In fact, it is a better FEELING pull than the LEM in any variant (weight). The V3 in this gun is ~ 9 lbs with no stacking. The LEM stacking really counts against it and is mostly due the weight of the hammer spring. Conclusion, to improve the LEM, drop the hammer spring weight.

That’s a real “duh” to anyone who knows the LEM trigger.

A: 14 lb spring - garbage.
B: 12 lb “blue” spring - good on TDA, stacks terribly on LEM.
C: 11 lb lazywolf spring - weakest reliable spring. This is in my P30L carry gun set-up.
D: 10 lb reduced weight - This will be my go to in competition.

2. Next, we take a look at the TRS, which is the other side of this equation. The TRS contributes to the trigger pull in 3 ways. The first is contributing to some of the weight (V3) or most of the weight (V1/2) of the trigger pull. The goal is to ideally minimize this. It also contributes to reset speed. The goal then becomes to balance the pull and reset speed as a compromise. Lastly, a high weight TRS can help reduce the feel of stacking.

A. Heavy TRS - not bad when paired with other light springs. Too heavy with other heavy springs. My go-to for P2000 series.
B. Light TRS - perhaps too light for a good reset. When used in V1 LEM, weight and reset are indistinguishable from V3. Due to reset issues, I do not like this TRS.
C. Medium TRS (P30 series only) - This is in the mail right now. I hope that with the 10/11lb hammer spring, this will be “The Spring”.

3. Firing pin block spring. Simple. As long as it is safe, lighter is better. Therefore, the LazyWolf enhanced is my choice here.

Let’s now look at a V3 set up ideally (11 lb hammer spring, light TRS) and a VMutt (very close to VTLG, but with lazywolf springs and Medium TRS).

V3 DA. 7.5-8 lbs. Smooth and no stacking. Overally, pretty nice.

VMutt first pull. 5.5-6 lbs. Small amount of stacking, but not so much it leads to staging the trigger.

V3 SA. 3.5-4 lbs. Mush reset, mush break. Almost identical to V1 LEM. Bleh.

VMutt second pull - same as the first, but shorter. Here the stacking actually helps “re-prep” the trigger during recoil so that when the sights are back on target the gun is effectively single-action. Feels better than the vague-mushy feel of the V1 and V3 triggers.

Using this technique and exhaustive practice, I can pull my splits down into the high-teens and low 20s when running wide open. No, it’s not a single stack 1911, but I can’t do any better with the V3 because of the sluggish TRS and exact same reset as LEM. For comparison, my bill drill splits for a 1911 run 0.15 on my absolute best days (after shooting the 1911 for a good while).

That wraps up the key springs in a P series pistol. The nickle plated sear spring does nothing for me. The 4.1 hammer kit does make a difference, but it is so small I consider it in the diminishing returns because of the cost to benefit. Finally the LazyWolf reset reduction makes the V3 and LEM worlds better, but it really shines with the spring set that he uses (which is what is essentially described here).

This ends my dive into P series triggers. If you managed to make it this far, thank you , and try out some of these tips for yourself.

[Chef]

Timing is everything. Funny. I am switching my last P-Series LEM back to variant 1 this morning. I appreciate that it "can be" made better, but it will always be too dissimilar to other triggers to me. DA/SA is where it is at for the P-Series for me

[LSP552]

I think the reason many people, including me, have trouble treating LEM trigger like TDA, is that they are not. They are their own thing.

TDA guns don’t have an almost no weight take up then a wall. They have pressure immediately at the beginning of the DA press. Good DA triggers have little or no stacking and don’t have a noticeable wall just at the sear release point.

The problem most people have with LEM is the long travel with almost no weight and then an immediate wall. This makes the first LEM shot very easy to anticipate and snatch the trigger.

Many people find the people management benefits of the LEM to outweigh the shooting characteristics. That’s a personal choice based on individual needs and preferences.

If I were going to carry a LEM, it’s the only platform I would carry.

[PD Sgt.]

A few quick observations based on my own love/hate with P series pistols.

I try to consider LEM as more of a two-stage trigger that runs like a double/single on follow on shots.

I set up LEM with the lighter springs and heavy TRS. This feels best to me in the P2000, but the break is still “mushy” and not ideal to me. The P2000 has the best overall trigger feel to me of all the P series pistols, regardless of variant.

I also find the break in double/single set ups to be mushy, regardless of spring combinations. This is probably my biggest mental hurdle in shooting these pistols as well as I would like to, particularly compared to my P series CZs.

For these reasons, I have seriously been considering divesting myself of all but my P2K dbl/single and a 45C LEM that is my woods gun with .45 Super.

I realize with dedication and practice on these specific pistols I could push past my issues. Unfortunately I work where my HKs are at best off duty guns, so I do not devote as much time as I should to them.

[Coyote41]

TDA guns don’t have an almost no weight take up then a wall. They have pressure immediately at the beginning of the DA press. Good DA triggers have little or no stacking and don’t have a noticeable wall just at the sear release point.

Very true. Except that the spring set-up mentioned above will not give you a “no weight take up then a wall”. The idea of the LEM as such results from using the V1 “light” LEM which I think is terrible.

The problem most people have with LEM is the long travel with almost no weight and then an immediate wall. This makes the first LEM shot very easy to anticipate and snatch the trigger.

Again, read the set-up section of my first post. You can significantly reduce mr. Snatchy through spring selection.

Many people find the people management benefits of the LEM to outweigh the shooting characteristics. That’s a personal choice based on individual needs and preferences.

If I were going to carry a LEM, it’s the only platform I would carry.

I agree, but the LEM trigger doesn’t have to be a huge hinderance in shooting well, too.

[joshs]

I think the reason many people, including me, have trouble treating LEM trigger like TDA, is that they are not. They are their own thing.

TDA guns don’t have an almost no weight take up then a wall. They have pressure immediately at the beginning of the DA press. Good DA triggers have little or no stacking and don’t have a noticeable wall just at the sear release point.

The problem most people have with LEM is the long travel with almost no weight and then an immediate wall. This makes the first LEM shot very easy to anticipate and snatch the trigger.

Many people find the people management benefits of the LEM to outweigh the shooting characteristics. That’s a personal choice based on individual needs and preferences.

If I were going to carry a LEM, it’s the only platform I would carry.

While I agree, they are different, I find that thinking about the triggers as Coyote41 describes helped me shoot the LEM better. I did set my LEMs up the same way as ToddG (heavy TRS, reduced power factory springs elsewhere). I found that setup to best match the first shot DA pull. Subsequent pulls seemed pretty similar to a (relatively heavy) SA trigger.

I've never been a fast split shooter, but it certainly isn't a strong suit of the LEM. Fast and accurate splits are easiest for me with something like a Langdon-tuned Beretta where the SA is "slap-able" without disturbing the sights much.

[Coyote41]

I try to consider LEM as more of a two-stage trigger that runs like a double/single on follow on shots.

Also a good analogy.

I set up LEM with the lighter springs and heavy TRS. This feels best to me in the P2000, but the break is still “mushy” and not ideal to me. The P2000 has the best overall trigger feel to me of all the P series pistols, regardless of variant.

Same set up as my P2000 and my P2000 is the worst LEM trigger I have. I have noticed there can be a big difference between pistols of the same type as far as trigger goes.

I also find the break in double/single set ups to be mushy, regardless of spring combinations. This is probably my biggest mental hurdle in shooting these pistols as well as I would like to, particularly compared to my P series CZs.

My P2000 is mushier than my P30L by a lot. This is truly the biggest hurdle I’ve found that I cannot find a “gear” solution to.

For these reasons, I have seriously been considering divesting myself of all but my P2K dbl/single and a 45C LEM that is my woods gun with .45 Super.

The HK45 series does far better as an LEM gun. I don’t know why.


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[HCM]

I think the reason many people, including me, have trouble treating LEM trigger like TDA, is that they are not. They are their own thing.

TDA guns don’t have an almost no weight take up then a wall. They have pressure immediately at the beginning of the DA press. Good DA triggers have little or no stacking and don’t have a noticeable wall just at the sear release point.

The problem most people have with LEM is the long travel with almost no weight and then an immediate wall. This makes the first LEM shot very easy to anticipate and snatch the trigger.

Many people find the people management benefits of the LEM to outweigh the shooting characteristics. That’s a personal choice based on individual needs and preferences.

If I were going to carry a LEM, it’s the only platform I would carry.

My Agency issued LEM Guns (USPC 40 LEM V2) and I carried one exclusively on and off duty for 8 years. Like most LE we point Guns at people far more often than we shoot them. YMMV.

Based on my own experience and seeing a large group of people using LEM guns for a decade I agree with everything LSP552 wrote here.

IME the USPC and USP LEM triggers feel better than the P2000 series guns. Internally, the HK45 and 45C are more like the USP series than the P series, hence their better LEM triggers.

Shooting DA revolvers or DAO autos can help with the visual patience needed to avoid anticipation and shoot the LEM well. A .22 revolver or DAO auto with a .22 conversion kit is a useful tool for mastering the LEM.

This is a software issue, not a hardware issue. LEM is its own thing.

If you want to shoot an LEM well you have to put in the work and even then you will leave some performance on the table in exchange for the people management benefits the LEM affords. If that is not acceptable LEM may not be for you.

[HCM]

A better question may be what are you trying to do with the LEM?

Are you Agency mandated to use LEM ?

The LEMs strength is as a people mangement trigger. You can’t assess the effect of your shots when shooting splits in the teens.

Take a look at this video and think about why you want to run LEM vs another system.

[nwhpfan]

I want to go right to your comment about if it's in the mind. I think it is. I see the LEM a bit more simple. First shot has a lot of take-up and the second has a fairly longer reset compared to other guns. Maybe the LEM is a bit overthought when perhaps: Sights on target, pull til bang sould be the focus.

If you can tolerate the idiot in the video, here's one I did with a P2000 LEM that goes right to the point about some of the critisism of the LEM - although that was not hte point of the video.