Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 26

Thread: Rolling elbows up and in?

  1. #11
    Site Supporter P.E. Kelley's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Location
    Dry-side of Washington State
    My 2 cents.

    What happens with the elbows should be a reaction to how you grip the pistol...not a way to grip the pistol.

    If you Vogel grip and try to tip your index finger knuckles into the grip and toward each other...your elbows will
    move up to some degree. This is a result of your grip. Same goes for any grip technique. The elbows will go...where they go.

    I just grab the thing and hold on as if a 225# MMA fighter was trying to take it away from me. (I grip like Vogel) (or he grips like me)
    Guns are just machines and without you they can do no harm, nor any good

  2. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by gomerpyle View Post
    Hopefully I am not mistaken in saying the following: in the photos both Vogel and Sevigny are competing with Glocks, and Stoeger and Smith Tangfolio and a 1911(?) respectively.

    i have to wonder if elbow positions might be at least in part dictated by the weight of the pistol.
    I doubt it.

    Name:  Sevigny_2014A6.jpg
Views: 1160
Size:  99.3 KB


    Sure, you may say he's not going to change his style on the odd occasion he shoots a steel pistol. Fair enough.

    But if the extra weight of a steel pistol required you to have your elbows in, then presumably these ladies would have gravitated to that style.

    Name:  SARA_SP01.jpg
Views: 1064
Size:  80.0 KB

    Name:  Sara-Taylor-480x194.jpg
Views: 1005
Size:  23.9 KB

    You can find other examples of steel pistol shooters using either of the arm positions. I started with a Beretta and moved to a CZ and my arm position looks like that of Sevigny. (I also use a rather high grip that's somewhere in between Sevigny and Vogel, which supports what PE Kelley said. But I'm a sample of one and it goes without saying that I'm nowhere near the caliber of Kelley, Vogel and Sevigny.)
    Last edited by BigD; 12-20-2018 at 09:31 PM.

  3. #13
    I can't speak to what high level competition shooters do as far as their shooting grip; and while I think there's a lot to be gleaned from such, I don't know that all wholly applies to those whom don't have the depth of investment in the skillset and the commitment to practice that they do. I think that much akin to comparisons between martial arts and combatives, there's something to be said to gleaning what attributes have the most efficient return for what's invested into them, and will provide the most improvement for the majority of shooters with an economy of time given over to it.

    From my own personal experience with some of those folks, I sometimes wonder if they're subconsciously doing more than they're articulating; and that those unmentioned virtues become all-important when one pursues their level of performance.

    If a shooter's performing sufficient to organizational standards, and to their own satisfaction; I generally let them be. If they desire betterment and hit me up, I'll offer what I can. We're fortunate at my place to have some tremendously capable shooters; some via good technique, and some in spite of some slightly sub-optimal technique or physical realities. I advocate an elbows-rolled over grip for my folks who need some honing, for the following reasons: most will see more desirable recoil management, a reduced likelihood of conditioning in a flinch response or the gradual clearing of that behavior, more muscular opposition to the ability of their trigger finger pressing to disturb their muzzle-line prior to firing, and a more durable grip capable of enduring multiple rounds at all ranges and paces.

    My measures for any shooting grip are: does it reduce or eliminate articulation of the wrists under recoil and to a lesser degree reduce or eliminate articulation of the elbows under recoil, provide for muscular opposition to the pressing of the trigger, does it provide maximum support to the weapon to allow for cycling, and can it remain in place for the length of one magazine fired with the appropriate duty chambering.

    In theory, the optimal grip for my folks as I see it is something along the lines of:

    ...Shooting-hand as high up on the backstrap as possible, rotated forward sufficient to operate the double-action trigger from rest in one uninterupted stroke when firing one-handed with the thumb flagged up and pressing laterally against the frame.

    ...Support-hand index-finger choked up high into the intersection of the shooting-hand's middle-finger and the underside of the trigger-guard. The support-hand index-finger may rest between the first and second knuckles of the shooting-hand, or it may clasp against the shooting-side edge of the trigger-guard.

    ...Support-hand thumb advanced sufficiently far forward so as to be in-line with the trigger finger's tip at full rest, or further; sufficiently far forward that the meaty portion of the support-hand's thumb is pressed high and firmly against the frame, but not so highly that it interferes with any firecontrols.

    ...Shooting-hand thumb posts on or between the first two knuckles of the support-hand thumb.

    ...both elbows rolled over, adding additional contra-rotational pressure within the shooter's grip, loaded primarily between the shooting-hand's first knuckle and the entire length of the support-hand's thumb from first knuckle to tip.

    If a shooter was to roll their elbows the other way (downwards) as is taught in some places for "tactical" reasons (e.g. "to shrink your silhouette, so that your elbows don't stick out and catch a round"), then it will focus pressure on the lowest portion of the pistol's grip. The magwell is at best a lever for managing recoil, but in reducing pressure at the top of the frame nearer to where the recoil occurs the frame has more slackspace through which to move and gain momentum. Loading tension onto the gun after the recoil has arrived is playing catch-up, and the recoil will be happening faster than the shooter can spontaneously react to it; so the only reasonable course of action is to load tension in advance of the recoil and then maintain it through both the rearward and forward movements of the slide.

    Things that the more traditional folks generally dislike about this when viewing it from the sidenlines are the relatively large swaths of the grip panels that aren't covered with skin, and for some the lower edges of the hands visibly peeling away from the magwell when the elbows are rolled over; but as far as the functioning of the gun and the hits on target, it's not even a close-comparison before vs after, with those I've been coaching on it. I believe that deliberately stacking tension onto the gun beats passive friction any day of the week.

    For those who train in such arts, strangling isn't accomplished just by putting hands onto necks and squeezing (forearm and hand muscles only); it's more efficiently accomplished by involving as much of the rest of the body as possible to the action. A collar choke, while generally calling for the rotation to be in the other direction, adds the chest and back muscles to the action in addition to the aforementioned forearm and hand muscles; it gets the job done faster, has a greater likelihood of succeeding, and as a non-isolation type movement is less tiring to the strangler. The same logic applies to rolling the elbows over in contribution to the shooting grip: forearm and hand muscles alone, vs forearm\hand\chest\back muscles together.

    The end-state is a grip less likely to come apart during shooting, better able to apply consistent and vicing pressure throughout that shooting, seemingly faster slide return, reduced vertical and linear (approaching the shooter) travel during recoil, a more rapid return of the sights to the eyeline (isometric resistance as opposed to driving the gun back down after-firing), an increase in muscular opposition to the press of the trigger, and the shooter has a greater cognitive surplus left over to assess their target and manage their sights. It's a "do this one thing to cover many bases, so that you don't have to worry about any of them, and then focus on what remains" kind of thing.

    The results of applying this methodology have been pretty consistently pleasing; irrespective of gender, size, athleticism, relative size of hands to the gun, and how much they do or don't practice outside of work.

    For the narrow vein of relevance that I have, and the limited amount of time that I can spend with any shooter or group of shooters; this is where I've arrived at. Your mileage may vary.
    Jules
    Runcible Works

  4. #14
    You beat me to it!

    This technique is especially effective with polymer framed pistols.

    Quote Originally Posted by runcible View Post
    ...both elbows rolled over, adding additional contra-rotational pressure within the shooter's grip, loaded primarily between the shooting-hand's first knuckle and the entire length of the support-hand's thumb from first knuckle to tip.

    If a shooter was to roll their elbows the other way (downwards) as is taught in some places for "tactical" reasons (e.g. "to shrink your silhouette, so that your elbows don't stick out and catch a round"), then it will focus pressure on the lowest portion of the pistol's grip. The magwell is at best a lever for managing recoil, but in reducing pressure at the top of the frame nearer to where the recoil occurs the frame has more slackspace through which to move and gain momentum. Loading tension onto the gun after the recoil has arrived is playing catch-up, and the recoil will be happening faster than the shooter can spontaneously react to it; so the only reasonable course of action is to load tension in advance of the recoil and then maintain it through both the rearward and forward movements of the slide.

  5. #15
    I do find that rolling elbows up and out increases clamping pressure on a gun. I also find that it stiffens my upper body and makes it difficult to do other things fast like shooting from awkward positions, around walls etc. Even reloads become a little slow. I am too stiff anyway and another level of mechanical complexity vs just grip with my support hand feels like a tradeoff I don't want to make.
    Last edited by YVK; 12-23-2018 at 01:12 PM.
    Doesn't read posts longer than two paragraphs.

  6. #16
    Deadeye Dick Clusterfrack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Wokelandia

    Rolling elbows up and in?

    If it feels weird and causes tension, I would look elsewhere for improvement. Shaving 0.02s off splits isn’t worth a jacked up posture.

    Also, if the gun isn't slipping in your hands, what does adding pressure do?
    Last edited by Clusterfrack; 12-23-2018 at 02:19 PM.
    "You can never have too many knives." --Joe Ambercrombie
    Shabbat shalom, motherf***ers! --Mordechai Jefferson Carver

  7. #17
    Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Northwest
    Quote Originally Posted by randyflycaster View Post
    Yesterday I went to the range. When I shot I rolled my elbows up and in. This technique helped me apply more side-to-side pressure on the gun, and I shot much better.
    However, last night I watched some videos of Jerry Miculek. I am surprised at how low his elbows are compared to other top shooters.

    Do the elbows play a big roll in controlling recoil?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uFoM8S3JwZU

    I know he is a big advocate of locking his support wrist to control recoil, though I am not sure what else he does.

    Do any of you folks roll your elbows up and in? Do any of you folks shoot with your elbows like Jerry's?

    Thanks,

    Randy
    I'll go right to your question and give my own thoughts on this.

    Some people's body parts just do different things so you can't always look at one person and try to emulate that and it works for you.

    As for rolling elbows up. If it worked for you, do it.

    It's like algebra. You already know what X is. X is the guns lifts and returns quickly, correctly and consistently so you can shoot faster. Now what application of grip makes it do that?

    For me, elbows up does the opposite of that and causes my hand to squirm off the gun. For me* I grip from the gun back. Prioritizing the hands, wrist, forearms. As long as my hands are clamped the rest is my body is to support that. Some shooting positions you arms, elbow, body, feet and legs offer little help. I know that if I'm clamped hard especially around the bottom fingers of my off hand, where are they are pressing through towards the lower palm pad that I have very solid grip.
    A71593

  8. #18
    Site Supporter Mjolnir's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Not sure, really
    Great Topic!!

    [emoji106][emoji106][emoji106]


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  9. #19
    Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    Various spots in Arizona
    If a person is always in a stance and shooting at a set target then the elbows locking can work depending on the grip.

    If one is an advocate of shooting and moving locked elbows in any fashion can cause problems. This is even more true when you and the target are moving.
    What you do right before you know you're going to be in a use of force incident, often determines the outcome of that use of force.

  10. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by ER_STL View Post
    I tend to let my elbows roll up and out a bit because I want the drumstick portion of my support hand to have firm contact with the side-panel above my strong hand fingers.
    I might be guilty of resurrecting a zombie thread here but I've been working on my grip a lot in dryfire over the past two weeks and using the search function. The turn of phrase above has helped me a lot over the past couple of weeks.

    I'm curious if people still hold their same opinions from this thread a couple of years later.

User Tag List

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •