Firearms Scores REcords: keep the raw, or just put in pass/fail?

[TGS]

Interesting, @Hideeho. Thanks for sharing some of the context.

I feel like most of that would be covered by other means though, such as referencing policy or training curriculum. I'm not allowed to shoot to wound by policy, nor am I trained or qualified to shoot a person solely to disable them. I am, however, qualified and trained on shooting a person center mass to stop a threat.

I feel like that angle taken by an attorney would very quickly be shut down formally by the judge with the jury instructed to ignore it as I acted according to both policy and documented training.

One of the things that FLETC is apparently very good at is documenting in detail the training curriculum. They even have a full size aircraft interior shrink-wrapped, pre-packaged, to be shipped to a court for demonstration on Aircraft Countermeasures when an LEO eventually shoots somebody in an aircraft.

[Jim Watson]

Not just shooting, it is established in diversity hiring that there is no such thing as "more qualified."
If 70% is passing, the 70% performer is as entitled to consideration as the 90% performer.

[John Hearne]

We record failures by taking away the failed party's badge and gun right there on the range, and they have to get a ride home from someone as we also take the keys to their patrol car.

To provide a view from a different world:

We now have an "official" agency score sheet that we use to record scores. The sheet has slots for ~10 names so clearly it was intended to record multiple shooters.

We are now directed to only put one name on a score sheet and leave the rest blank. The idea is that how someone shoots is potentially embarrassing and no one else should know if someone failed (as if it isn't generally obvious) as everyone has to have a sheet that shows their individual score.

Upon receiving this instruction, I asked - what about reshoots, isn't it going to be obvious who failed when they have to reshoot?

I was told that I shouldn't announce it as a reshoot for those who failed but rather, ask - who would like to shoot again? This way anyone who failed won't be obvious as the opportunity to reshoot is open to everyone as anyone who wanted to shoot a second time could do so.

This on a COF shot on the Transtar with the 4 and 5 ring scored as hits and enough rounds at the 3 and 7 yards so that you only need 3 hits out of the 12 fired at 15 and 25 yards.

This is how far we are forced to separate people from their incompetence.

[HCM]

Interesting, @Hideeho. Thanks for sharing some of the context.

I feel like most of that would be covered by other means though, such as referencing policy or training curriculum. I'm not allowed to shoot to wound by policy, nor am I trained or qualified to shoot a person solely to disable them. I am, however, qualified and trained on shooting a person center mass to stop a threat.

I feel like that angle taken by an attorney would very quickly be shut down formally by the judge with the jury instructed to ignore it as I acted according to both policy and documented training.

One of the things that FLETC is apparently very good at is documenting in detail the training curriculum. They even have a full size aircraft interior shrink-wrapped, pre-packaged, to be shipped to a court for demonstration on Aircraft Countermeasures when an LEO eventually shoots somebody in an aircraft.

There is still lots of Agency Derp out there. My personal favorite are the idiots who tell people to never shoot a perfect score on a qualification on theory that if you ever miss in an operational shooting “they” will “crucify you.” Of course this is usually just a mask for the fact that they are not capable of shooting a perfect score...

We record raw scores. By policy officers get two “official attempts” to qualify per day, if they fail twice their gun is pulled if it is issued, or if it is a POW they are served a form letter not to carry it until further notice. They then get an 8 hour day of remedial training including two more attempts to qualify. They can repeat this in 8 hour increments up to 40 hours at which point it is a management issue.

I’m aware if at least two officers who were removed after being unable to qualify after 40 hours if remedial. One was moved to a non sworn support position and the other was fired as they were still a probationary employee.

Our trainees ARE removed from training and sent back to their office if they are unable to qualify at the academy. That normally results in firing. They shoot every other day during the academy and the academy staff does everything they can to coach and massage them through qualifying. They used to get three attempts (really six, three days, two attempts each.) but they were supposed to cut that to two. @Gadfly May have more recent info.

[KeeFus]

We record raw scores. If they fail they have two (2) more attempts at the course. If they fail that we take their badge and gun and provide them a ride home. They can shoot it again the next day after remediation. Our minimum score is 80 for pistol (50 round course), 85 for shotgun (5 buckshot/5 slug course) , and 90 for rifle (62 round course). Our agency target is a TQ21.

We are currently in a position wherein I retire in just over two years; Grizzly21 retires in 4 years; and the other firearms instructor retires in 4. I had to select two new firearms instructors to make “Range Rats” so they can learn the ropes prior to a retirement mass exodus. I was able to data mine our last 5 years raw scores, put it in a spreadsheet, and determine the next two. I pissed off a lot of cops doing it that way but I need a consistently high 90’s - 100% shooter. There are obviously other things to look at like knowledge, patience, ability to think on their feet and think outside the box, and ability to communicate. Just because they shoot well isn’t the only criteria. It’s a totality of all this and being able to shoot. But if they can’t shoot everything else is moot. A simple “P” or “F” wouldn’t deliver the necessary data needed.

Before they ever set foot on a prequalification course, wherein they have to shoot 92% or better two out of three times day then again on night course of fire, they will shoot it 95 or better at the agency. The target for NCJA prequalification is the B27 on a pneumatic turning target system. You would be surprised how many agencies send people they “think” would be a good firearms instructor and they can pass prequalication...some have never shot on a turning target system and targets that actually go away after a set time is a new concept and creates a learning curve. On my prequalification day several years ago, 8 people went home after the daytime qualifications. Several more that night. After prequalification it’s a two week school.

It’s also mandated in NC in order to maintain LE Firearms Instructor credentials we have to requalify every three years on the BLET course of fire and score a 92 or better day and night on a B27.

There are, however, many agencies in NC that use “P” or “F”. I just don’t think it shows the true score (grade) of the person and leaves guys like me looking for data that may not be available elsewhere.

[BehindBlueI's]

We record failures by taking away the failed party's badge and gun right there on the range, and they have to get a ride home from someone as we also take the keys to their patrol car.

We used to do this, however it became a contractual issue as the take home car can't be taken for disciplinary reasons unless there's an accompanying suspension of a given length of time. Since if you fail you are given additional training and allowed to reshoot the quals the next day, the car can't be taken any longer.

[willie]

Allowing officers or trainees to shoot until they pass may have been influenced by education's "teaching for mastery" approach that permits students to retake tests until passing them. Of course, remediation is a component. However, increasing passing rates is the reason most have been adopted. Unfortunately, competency in reading, math, or writing skills was seldom achieved. Is there a parallel here? When reading NYPD career literature, I saw that promotion is not by exam but by merit.

[jlw]

We used to do this, however it became a contractual issue as the take home car can't be taken for disciplinary reasons unless there's an accompanying suspension of a given length of time. Since if you fail you are given additional training and allowed to reshoot the quals the next day, the car can't be taken any longer.

We don’t have contracts. We work for the Sheriff.

Our policy states that personnel may not operate an SO vehicle not wear anything identifying them as deputy unless they are armed.

[TGS]

We used to do this, however it became a contractual issue as the take home car can't be taken for disciplinary reasons unless there's an accompanying suspension of a given length of time. Since if you fail you are given additional training and allowed to reshoot the quals the next day, the car can't be taken any longer.

For us it isn’t a disciplinary issue. In order to have a take home car, we have to justify it due to our “rigorous law enforcement duties” and a need to respond from home, which includes the carriage of firearms. Technically we aren’t even supposed to use a take home if we leave our gun at the office.

Enforcement of such rules is another issue, especially if it’s a medical issue....most supervisors at the field offices just tie it to our LEAP pay, which you still get if you’re rubber-gunned for medical reasons.

[BehindBlueI's]

For us it isn’t a disciplinary issue. In order to have a take home car, we have to justify it due to our “rigorous law enforcement duties” and a need to respond from home, which includes the carriage of firearms. Technically we aren’t even supposed to use a take home if we leave our gun at the office.

Enforcement of such rules is another issue, especially if it’s a medical issue....most supervisors at the field offices just tie it to our LEAP pay, which you still get if you’re rubber-gunned for medical reasons.

We have to have a gun and radio. Failure to qualify once used to get you stripped of everything, now it gets you suspended from field duty until you qualify.

Take-home cars became a marketing tool for recruitment here, and it was listed under "benefits" in recruiting material, so it became a contract issue.