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Thread: Firearms Scores REcords: keep the raw, or just put in pass/fail?

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    Firearms Scores REcords: keep the raw, or just put in pass/fail?

    Hi All, my agency has historically kept all raw scores from firearms qualifications, i.e. 70%, 90%, etc. The good, the bad, and the ugly (or mediocre) is all recorded for posterity. Obviously that information is all subject to FOIA. I was talking with another agency's firearms guy yesterday and he said that they are considering simply putting in pass or fail for any course of fire in their official records. The thinking behind that was that there was less there for an attorney to pick apart in any given court proceeding.

    So my questions...

    1. Does your agency use raw scores or pass/fail? Do you know the rationale?
    2. Do any of you know of any actual court cases where the officer's raw scores were brought up? If so, was there any negative to it?

    My knee jerk thought is to leave it as is for us, i.e. keep the raw scores, but I'm certainly willing to hear discussions to the contrary, provided that they make sense and bring actual information, not conjecture, to the table.

  2. #2
    Modding this sack of shit BehindBlueI's's Avatar
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    @Mas would be a good resource for that question.

    We record pass/fail. I don't know the why of it.
    Sorta around sometimes for some of your shitty mod needs.

  3. #3
    Member TGS's Avatar
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    We record raw points.

    No idea on the why, no idea if it has come up in our OISs.
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    Site Supporter ST911's Avatar
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    If I record pass/fail, I can't track and compare shooter performance over time, shooters to each other, programs and curriculums, effects of equipment changes, and have one less tool to build excellence. These things mitigate the exaggerated issue of...

    Quote Originally Posted by SMJayman View Post
    there was less there for an attorney to pick apart in any given court proceeding
    Last edited by ST911; 12-12-2018 at 09:29 AM.
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  5. #5
    Member iWander's Avatar
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    We keep raw because it's what we've always done. I can't find state requirements to keep the raw scores. I'm considering the same process you are, but haven't for the same reasons.

  6. #6
    Modding this sack of shit BehindBlueI's's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ST911 View Post
    If I record pass/fail, I can't track and compare shooter performance over time, shooters to each other, programs and curriculums, effects of equipment changes, and have one less tool to build excellence. These things mitigate the exaggerated issue of...
    You could track programs, etc. by aggregate scores. Then they aren't tied to any given officer and don't go in a personnel file.

    Out of curiosity, what do you use shooter to shooter comparisons for? Do you have any sort of incentive pay for various qualifications? (I know this came up recently as an "ol' timey" motivation and am curious if anyone out there still does this.)
    Sorta around sometimes for some of your shitty mod needs.

  7. #7
    Site Supporter Trooper224's Avatar
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    Years ago we went to pass/fail. The attorneys who seem to really run most agencies determined that having scores on record was a liability.
    We may lose and we may win, but we will never be here again.......

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trooper224 View Post
    Years ago we went to pass/fail. The attorneys who seem to really run most agencies determined that having scores on record was a liability.

    That's the reason we went pass/fail
    What you do right before you know you're going to be in a use of force incident, often determines the outcome of that use of force.

  9. #9
    Member John Hearne's Avatar
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    We were a pass/fail agency for over 10 years. Recently, we have gone back to recording actual scores. I find it useful for identifying people who need help and since I'm a supervisor, I incorporate those scores into their annual evaluations. People tend to take any metric more seriously when their held accountable for their performance.
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  10. #10
    Site Supporter ST911's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BehindBlueI's View Post
    You could track programs, etc. by aggregate scores. Then they aren't tied to any given officer and don't go in a personnel file.
    True, and that works for some projects. For others, esp long term use, it's handier to have a master set with identifiable shooters so you can tease out other things you want to know. Gender, age range, time in service, system, combinations thereof, and anything else you input. It's a matter of how much you want to nerd out on it.

    I don't care that the data is discoverable or may be in a pif, and I largely reject the fear-industry. If troop sucks or the program sucks, own it. Pay insurance premiums, indemnify employees, and do better.

    Out of curiosity, what do you use shooter to shooter comparisons for? Do you have any sort of incentive pay for various qualifications? (I know this came up recently as an "ol' timey" motivation and am curious if anyone out there still does this.)
    As above, it's just teasing out things I want to know or think might be useful. Compiled score sheets are also shared for motivation/competition/peer pressure. Some care, many don't. No formal incentive program, though I like them for several things (fitness, education. volunteerism). Rather than a NCLB qual test though, I'm more inclined to incentivize something external and more difficult like a USPSA or IDPA classification.
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