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Thread: Assisting LEO's

  1. #1

    Assisting LEO's

    Could the LEO's her please have a discussion about when , under what scenario (s) it would be appropriate for a civilian to assist or offer assistance. Protocols that should be followed risks of assisting etc etc
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  2. #2
    I assume you mean “assisting” by means of an extra good guy with a gun. Very risky. Sometimes it even works out. Google up Texas Tower shooting (1966), and you can review the involvement of private citizen Alan Crum. Also, the involvement of other citizens using their deer rifles to keep Charles Whitman pinned down. This was before SWAT teams.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Inspector71 View Post
    I assume you mean “assisting” by means of an extra good guy with a gun. Very risky. Sometimes it even works out. Google up Texas Tower shooting (1966), and you can review the involvement of private citizen Alan Crum. Also, the involvement of other citizens using their deer rifles to keep Charles Whitman pinned down. This was before SWAT teams.
    You assumed incorrectly. Assistance can mean anything. I assisted a security person who was in a tangle and tired. I asked first he's said yes. However I don't mean changing a tire.
    I'll wager you a PF dollar™ 😎
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  4. #4
    The key would be the introduction between you and the LEO. Needs more context though.

    What am I doing? What’s the bad guy doing? Am I asking for help? Am I getting my ass whooped? Too many variables to have a very productive conversation in my opinion.

    My advice would be to ask the LEO if he or she wants assistance. Then do what they tell you. If you’re armed keep it hidden until the LEO acknowledges why you’re there. Of course if it’s an active shooter and we are all pointing guns in the same direction - probably not a big issue. I think we had a thread about active shooter responses for non-LEO. It’s still dangerous as plain clothes LE have been shot by other LE (Alpine, TX a couple years ago comes to mind).

    When backup or additona LE arrives be prepared to stop everything and drop anything in your hands. Uniforms have shot plain clothes LE during incidents and I think a citizen with a gun in his hand got shot recently in a mall shooting.

    There is no perfect technique or response and you will be inserting yourself into a dangerous situation. Make sure it’s worth it, especially if you have a family.

  5. #5
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    A few quick thoughts. While I can certainly appreciate the willingness and desire to assist an officer, I would caution that involves a tremendous amount of risk to the citizen. First (and I am assuming an armed encounter here) you are placing yourself in the line of fire from whoever is engaging the officer.

    Second, the involved officer, who may be wounded and most likely hyper aware or threat focused may not recognize you as assisting and address you as an additional threat. This has a negative impact on both of you: the officer may start to shoot you and thus exposes themself to additional risk from the original threat.

    Third, even if the original officer recognizes you as friendly, other responding officers may not. Descriptions often get cloudy and confused over the radio on good days. Even if the original officer airs your description, there is no guarantee other officers don’t mistake you for a threat.

    Fourth, and this would require a level of bad karma few enjoy, another Good Samaritan may mistake you for another threat and zap you.

    At the end of the day you need to weigh the risks you are willing to assume. Do you have your family there? Are you equally likely to be overwhelmed and killed? Would it be better to be a sole witness than the second body?

    I know I will never stand by idly and watch another officer be gunned down, but I am part of that community and know the risks. It is tough because you want to do the right thing, but it may not be the best thing for you to do, and may even be counterproductive.
    Polite Professional

  6. #6
    I don' have any specific scenarios in mind. I was just seeking input from the members here. One book I read called Strong on Defense, the author was an instructor at an academy, said the best plane is to have a plan before it happens.
    Negatives positives plan of action protocols to follow...its all good info, thanks in advance.
    I'll wager you a PF dollar™ 😎
    The lunatics are running the asylum

  7. #7
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    I'd second the recommendation that you get some acknowledgment from the officer that he wants your assistance. If things seem somewhat under control (an officer covering a suspect or vehicle at gunpoint), I'd suggest you stay holstered and observe. If things break into a gunfight and you feel you should help, attempt to provide verbal notification to the officer that you're on the side of the angels (e.g.: "Officer, I'm with you! I'm armed!"). That's not perfect, but it's the best I can offer.

    As suggested, helping out can be incredibly dangerous to armed citizens and off-duty/plainclothes officers. A neighboring county lost a narcotics detective some months ago who responded to an unprovoked firearms attack at a district station and was shot and killed by an officer who actually knew the detective.

  8. #8
    Modding this sack of shit BehindBlueI's's Avatar
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    As a department, we've had everything from citizens chasing down fleeing suspects to shooting (at) a suspect engaged in a gunfight with an officer. Personally, I've never had anything other than helping handcuff someone. Maybe twice I've had a suspect wadded up in such a way that I had control of them but couldn't release the hold to cuff them. I've had someone take the cuffs off the back of my belt and then put one on a suspect's wrist for me.

    Other officers have already mentioned the importance of asking if they want your help. Because of the safety concerns and the possibility of confused identity, plain clothes officers will generally ask if the situation allows. Take that as a clue and non-LE should definitely ask if possible. Even in the shooting scenario, the person got the officer's attention and asked first. That might not always be possible, of course. An officer who's been rendered unconscious, say, or an active shooter scenario where there's too much noise to be heard at whatever distance you are at.

    Other than the physical safety benefits, you might get some legal benefit as well. This will vary state to state, but if you are asked or ordered to assist an officer that can make you an agent of the officer and he assumes much of the liability for your non-negligent actions. My state actually has a "failure to aid" law that makes it your legal duty to assist if I order you to. The law has the universal escape clause of "...without good reason" so you'd never be convicted for failing to do so (personal safety is a good reason) but you're following the law and have that protection if I tell you to help me wrestle this guy or whatever. Without that order, you aren't my agent and you're legally on your own. A woman is being sued for shooting an offender who was fighting with an officer, and while she's getting some help from gofundme type campaigns and individual officers, she gets no formal legal help from the equivalent of City Legal or the FOP type organizations.

    If you're physically intervening when you can't ask for aid, loudly announce your intentions. This is normally done by verbal commands to the suspect. "Stop (kicking/punching/fighting) that officer!" as you go to work is probably going to cover it.

    Remember that even plain clothes officers are trained that the uniformed guy is in charge. Do what responding officers tell you to do. Body language and verbalizing will help. If you're holding pressure on an officer's wound shouting "he's over here, help us" that's real different than standing next to a downed officer with a gun out. The second might even be unavoidable, but recognize how others are going to see it and get out of that posture as absolutely quickly as the situation allows.

    Don't disappear. Once the officer has the situation under control and you can back out, it's fine to make some distance and be at the periphery of the incident. You might be a key witness, though, so stick around until someone gets your information. Particularly in this day and age when every use of force is documented at the most minute levels, a 3rd party witness is really helpful.
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  9. #9
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    BehindBluel's post brings to mind a significant point/ Keep that smokewagon holstered until you absolutely need to present or shoot. Once the action is over, get your weapon back in the holster as soon as possible. Keep a firing grip if needed, but get your burner back in the leather (or Kydex).

    Admittedly, that may not be the most tactical thing to do for a uniformed LEO, but it's a good idea for a plainclothes LEO or armed citizen. You might be slower if you have to re-engage, but it significantly reduces the risk of you being shot by responding police. If the situation allows, concealing the pistol or placing it on the ground having your hands up with you on your knees is even better.

    As always, IF the situation allows.

  10. #10
    Site Supporter Hambo's Avatar
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    If you hear the cavalry coming, I'd recommend staying out of it. You may be trying to help an officer but you have no idea how other cops are going to perceive you. If it looks like you're part of the problem in a FUT it's going to be painful.

    Also, if you're armed consider that your weapon may be far more accessible than the officer's pistol. You get in a tangle and get disarmed, and you, the cop, or both of you get shot.
    Last edited by Hambo; 12-09-2018 at 08:46 AM.
    "Gunfighting is a thinking man's game. So we might want to bring thinking back into it."-MDFA

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