I Owe An Apology re the P30

[Bere09]

I’ve had trigger freeze on 1911’s shooting Bill drills. Is that because reset matters or because the shooter (me) did something wrong?

Would you agree that you're less likely to have trigger freeze with a 1911 than you are with a P30?

Don't get me wrong, you can have trigger freeze with any pistol.

[HCountyGuy]

I think RR nailed it in that sometimes we overthink the minutae of shooting.

Going on to the whole reset matters/doesn’t matter:

It matters if you’re chasing splits and just trying to shoot. You’ll get no arguments there. This discussion of the LEM trigger wasn’t solely about splits though, it’s also entwined with threat management and getting off the trigger if the situation changes to a no-shoot. Yes it’s accomplishable with TDA, but the LEM doesn’t have to be de-cocked. Darryl made mention in the topic that even squared away folks might go through mental overload post-shooting and forget to decock.

Getting back to the reset, the reset on my P30 doesn’t seem that significant to me. Sure it’s not a Sig with a short reset kit installed, but it’s not unshootable at a high level by those who dedicate the time to master it. Look at Todd’s journals about the P30, he ran that pretty damn good. You can short-stroke any trigger if you’re pushing too fast. Is that a platform issue or a user issue?

If competition shooting/fast splits are your goal then yes the LEM isn’t going to win you any prizes. That’s by purposeful design. There are gunsmiths that can shorten the reset on a LEM if you want.

[RevolverRob]

[/B]

I completely agree with this statement and that's exactly why I'd argue that reset does matter. When the reset is significantly farther forward than the trigger break point, people do have to think about the reset and it hinders all of the other aspects of their shooting. Accuracy included. When the reset is at a point that is equal to the trigger break you don't have to think about it as much. You don't need to make sure you let the trigger out far enough to reset it or risk short stroking it. I say this as someone that lets the trigger all the way out on 90% of my shots, but when I'm really trying to shoot the gun fast, I've short stroked a gun on many occasions. It happens far more often with a P30 or a stock P-07 or 09 for example then with a Glock or Beretta or other CZs. Can you train around that? Sure. I think you can train around any trigger, but that doesn't mean it doesn't matter.

How much it matters in specific scenarios can be definitely be argued.

There was a great quote by Parnelli Jones (famous racecar driver for those who don't know), Parnelli raced in NASCAR, hill climbs, road courses, Indy, if it had four wheels and a steering wheel, over his 40+ year career he'd race it. When asked what his favorite racecar to drive of all time was his response was, "After awhile all the dashboards look the same."

Reset doesn't matter if you stop letting it all the way out 90% of the time and start letting it all the way out 100% of the time. In order to do that you have to treat shooting each gun as if its the same as the last one. (Hang on a minute, I'll come back to treating them differently in a second). When you start by running them all the same, you're focused on getting hits, not running the trigger. Once you're consistently getting hits at speed, letting off the trigger entirely...then you can start to focus on the nuances of each trigger. If you try to run before you walk or pick up a gun you've never shot before and start trying to run it like you do your best practiced platforms you'll get into trouble.

Here's an interesting challenge, try simply letting go of the trigger (1) and run splits focusing only on hitting the headbox on a USPSA target. Then compare that with letting it out all the way but riding the trigger (2). Then compare that with riding to reset (3). Most people aren't getting a significant difference between 1 and 2, let alone 2 and 3. If you are seeing a significant difference between 2 and 3, congratulations! You're now a statistical outlier in terms of shooting speed and skill (assuming of course that you're getting hits). Now, re-do the test transition between two targets, three targets, etc. When you're consistently cleaning the targets at the same speed riding the trigger all the way out, now add in riding to reset only.

Most people never get to that level. If you're consistently that level with your guns, then don't bother changing (it's not broken, leave it alone).

As for short strokes - You short stroke guns, when you're try to speed up your mechanics, thinking you'll shave time that way. The gains aren't worth it, if you don't have your mechanics nearly perfect otherwise. Your draws, your transitions, your speed to the first shot, your accuracy, etc. This is one of my chief complaints in gaming, that speed is over-compensated relative to accuracy. Sure we want to be fast and accurate, but actually we want to be accurate and then fast. Since most folks can't get hits at moderate speed, worrying about things like trigger reset is totally cart before horse.

[CCT125US]

Lots of thoughts running through my mind right now, but can't seem to organize them in an appropriate manner. Let me start with this. Lots of talk seems to center around reset and splits, and there is a time when those things are certainly important. Let me mention a recent, first hand account. Following a league event, a shooter mentioned I should try his custom CZ Shadow, as it would really help me win. It was all I had in me not to snark if he wanted beaten faster? Because you see, with his 2 lb trigger, and ability to probably split in the mid teens, his overall time was literally twice mine. He was simply unable to realize the potential of the gun. If the split time is holding you up in the particular game or scenario important to you, then by all means, discuss reset and length of trigger pull. There is a whole lot of ground to he made up before splits and reset matter for most folks. In the scenario mentioned, my limiting factor was the target size and the distance of transition, not the LEM trigger. Running .6 splits was enough to beat open class shooters, because they hosed, while I hit. HK is not known for fine triggers, some suck less than others for certain things. All triggers have pros and cons, figuring out the individual points of importance will vary based on desired outcome.

Flame suit on..

[Bere09]

There was a great quote by Parnelli Jones (famous racecar driver for those who don't know), Parnelli raced in NASCAR, hill climbs, road courses, Indy, if it had four wheels and a steering wheel, over his 40+ year career he'd race it. When asked what his favorite racecar to drive of all time was his response was, "After awhile all the dashboards look the same."

Reset doesn't matter if you stop letting it all the way out 90% of the time and start letting it all the way out 100% of the time. In order to do that you have to treat shooting each gun as if its the same as the last one. (Hang on a minute, I'll come back to treating them differently in a second). When you start by running them all the same, you're focused on getting hits, not running the trigger. Once you're consistently getting hits at speed, letting off the trigger entirely...then you can start to focus on the nuances of each trigger. If you try to run before you walk or pick up a gun you've never shot before and start trying to run it like you do your best practiced platforms you'll get into trouble.

Here's an interesting challenge, try simply letting go of the trigger (1) and run splits focusing only on hitting the headbox on a USPSA target. Then compare that with letting it out all the way but riding the trigger (2). Then compare that with riding to reset (3). Most people aren't getting a significant difference between 1 and 2, let alone 2 and 3. If you are seeing a significant difference between 2 and 3, congratulations! You're now a statistical outlier in terms of shooting speed and skill (assuming of course that you're getting hits). Now, re-do the test transition between two targets, three targets, etc. When you're consistently cleaning the targets at the same speed riding the trigger all the way out, now add in riding to reset only.

Most people never get to that level. If you're consistently that level with your guns, then don't bother changing (it's not broken, leave it alone).

As for short strokes - You short stroke guns, when you're try to speed up your mechanics, thinking you'll shave time that way. The gains aren't worth it, if you don't have your mechanics nearly perfect otherwise. Your draws, your transitions, your speed to the first shot, your accuracy, etc. This is one of my chief complaints in gaming, that speed is over-compensated relative to accuracy. Sure we want to be fast and accurate, but actually we want to be accurate and then fast. Since most folks can't get hits at moderate speed, worrying about things like trigger reset is totally cart before horse.

I’m not advocating riding the reset at all, however at a certain point you can only move your finger a certain distance so fast and you need to shorten that distance slightly if you want to shoot faster. If your reset is not equal to your break point, that hinders how fast you can shoot the gun. Even if we’re only talking about competition and nothing else, it does matter.

I disagree with you on your assessment of competition and the thought that speed is over-valued compared to accuracy. If you want to be good, you absolutely need to be fast and accurate.

We’re not going to agree on this and that’s totally fine. I love that there is a place on the internet for intelligent discussion and debate on the internet that doesn’t turn into a pissing match.

[Doc_Glock]

There were 230 competitors at that nationals. That means that 14 competitors shot Walther pistols out of 230. HK isn't even listed. I would be willing to guess that the number of competitors shooting HKs was in the single digits.

And of those shooting HKs I imagine zero were shooting the LEM.

I gave LEM an honest chance, but I did not learn to shoot it as well as a TDA or SFA. Maybe I could with a years work and 10,000 rounds but it just wasn't worth it to me to try.

[Bere09]

Lots of thoughts running through my mind right now, but can't seem to organize them in an appropriate manner. Let me start with this. Lots of talk seems to center around reset and splits, and there is a time when those things are certainly important. Let me mention a recent, first hand account. Following a league event, a shooter mentioned I should try his custom CZ Shadow, as it would really help me win. It was all I had in me not to snark if he wanted beaten faster? Because you see, with his 2 lb trigger, and ability to probably split in the mid teens, his overall time was literally twice mine. He was simply unable to realize the potential of the gun. If the split time is holding you up in the particular game or scenario important to you, then by all means, discuss reset and length of trigger pull. There is a whole lot of ground to he made up before splits and reset matter for most folks. In the scenario mentioned, my limiting factor was the target size and the distance of transition, not the LEM trigger. Running .6 splits was enough to beat open class shooters, because they hosed, while I hit. HK is not known for fine triggers, some suck less than others for certain things. All triggers have pros and cons, figuring out the individual points of importance will vary based on desired outcome.

Flame suit on..

One thing I’ve never mentioned in this thread is splits. I actually don’t think you need to split like crazy in order to be a good shooter, however splits do matter up to a certain point. I think if you’re splitting under .25 you can still make Master class with good fundamentals. One you’re splitting close to .18 or .2 I really don’t think it matters that much anymore. But the difference between 2 A zone hits at 10 yards at .6 and at .2 is huge. And make no mistake, good shooters can get 2 A zone hits in .2 seconds at 10 yards consistently.

You’re right that some people take speed way too seriously, but when you look at the results, those people aren’t good shooters anyway. The good shooters are going fast and getting their hits.

[Bucky]

1) There are VERY few shooters shooting the P30 in competition, and I feel pretty safe in saying that the number of really good shooters (M class or higher? GM or higher?) shooting it is pretty damn close to 0%. Competition shooters will shoot whatever gives them an advantage. I know this is going to bring out the "Gaming is different than the streets" crowd and I agree with that as well in some ways. But good shooters are good shooters and competition is probably the best vehicle we have for measuring that. Most guys that are good HK shooters are shooting a USP or the VP9 for a reason.

I ran a P30L for half a year in USPSA Production. It was a DA/SA version. and I managed to get the DA under 6 pounds. It's a fantastic firearm and way more accurate than my Glocks. That said, my primary production gun is a Shadow 2. It's a far superior competition gun. That said, I'd rather have the P30L in a combat situation. YMMV.

[vsdtrek]

I absolutely see why someone prefers a striker or even a DA/SA over the LEM. To me, I view it as a compromise (or should I say "no compromise" ?) between the two systems.

I'm a pretty novice shooter, only owning handguns since the start of 2012 and actually not being able to do so for about the last 2 years because of some shoulder surgeries. My first handgun was the DA/SA V3 P30 and picked up a USP LEM about two years later.

I used to really like the V3 before my surgeries. It made (and still does) a lot of sense on how to run. Finally being able to start back up, I didn't like that heavy pull and accidentally jerked a second SA shot off at the range after the first shot in DA. Never did that before. Nothing wrong with the system and certainly just rustiness on my part, but that was enough for me. I figure as I get older, I don't want to have to struggle with that really heavy pull. Used my USP exclusively after that and became a bit more familiar with the trigger. Sold the V3 and picked up a V1 last month.

I definitely understand and have recently experienced how a striker can potentially be easier and more fluid to shoot. Couldn't agree more. Why I went LEM for both models (vs looking at a VP9) is more for the first shot and the post-shot purposes should I unfortunately have to use it in a bad situation. I like that long and light concept and the way it resets to the long takeup should I stop after a shot. IMHO, I don't quite get the consistent striker but I also get a little better sense of safety if there is a round in the chamber. I don't quite get the first shot safety as a DA but I don't have to deal with the trigger. There's the compromise. In between, it takes a bit of focus, but I figure I will become more proficient in time with practice. Probably not to striker level, but I'm ok with that.

[Duke]

I’m back to concede a rapid and fervent defeat at the hands of a P30L LEM.


A switch from lem to a da/sa p30SK in the middle of a session today showed vast ability improved with the DA/SA.

For the life of me I can’t figure why. The v4 trigger spring resets more solidly and to the same point as the stock V3 gun. Who shoots what in competition isn’t a factor at all in my gear selection - but I am quite let down by my own performance with the LEM.

I’m left with a very positive impression of my capability with even the shortest 2 finger grip mag in the SK. Similarly shooting the long slide smooth trigger p30L so poorly really gives me pause.