I Owe An Apology re the P30

[Bere09]

I've read the article posted by Dagga. It's actually the reason I purchased the P30. I REALLY wanted to like that gun too. Tons of dryfire and practice with it to try and get competent. I finally realized I'd rather be able to hit what I'm aiming at, at speed, consistently. I don't think that threat management in general is invalid, I just think that are lots of guns out there that do it better and don't hinder the shooters performance as much as the P30. I do think that because it's HK, it gets a pass for a bad trigger. If it were a Glock or M&P or anything else, people would crap on it.

It didn't work for me, but I think you'll notice reading through the P30 thread that most people agree that their performance suffers. In some cases significantly so when using an LEM P30.

[HCountyGuy]

I don’t think the LEM is a crappy trigger, and I think many others will agree a TDA HK trigger sucks more than a Vegas hooker around the holidays. Folks around here aren’t afraid to call HK on a bad trigger, but the LEM is better than their TDA.

Yes others have relayed LEM didn’t work well for them, but that doesn’t mean it outright sucks. That’s like the striker-fired crowd saying TDA sucks because they can’t shoot the DA shot worth a flip. Just because it isn’t your cup of tea, doesn’t make it bad tea. LEM likely has fewer advocates than the other triggers out there, except maybe DAK and I think that sucks royally. Like anything else though, some people can run it like a sewing machine and others can’t hit the barn from inside with it.

Different strokes for different folks.

[MGW]

I have limited experience with a LEM and didn't even come close to mastering it but I think it can be mastered. There are far too many good shooters out there that are able to do some high level shooting with it for it to not be a legitimate system. It's not going to be a favored gamer trigger system, except by a few (Shawn Burrows is one that I can think of) but I believe it can be ran well.

Even though I'm not good with it I really appreciate the concept of the trigger. I want to be able to shoot a LEM really well because I would love to carry one. Unfortunately, I'm too impatient to stick with it long enough. For me, I think I could learn to run a LEM P30 if the take up to the wall was shorter and if the reset was a little shorter. I know that reset doesn't matter but with LEM the length of reset seems to add to my trouble running it. I get way to much trigger movement going back and forth and quickly lose any ability to maintain fast and accurate shots.

[RevolverRob]

My experience with the LEM is, I like it, a lot. But, I went TDA -> 1911 -> DAO revolvers -> DAO Semis -> LEM and I view running the LEM like running a DA revolver where you stage the trigger. Take-up, get it to the break, press through the wall, roll the trigger all the way out. That's maximum accuracy, for maximum speed roll through the trigger like a DA revolver.

I think TLG got the weighting of the springs right with the 4.1.

[Bere09]

I have limited experience with a LEM and didn't even come close to mastering it but I think it can be mastered. There are far too many good shooters out there that are able to do some high level shooting with it for it to not be a legitimate system. It's not going to be a favored gamer trigger system, except by a few (Shawn Burrows is one that I can think of) but I believe it can be ran well.

Even though I'm not good with it I really appreciate the concept of the trigger. I want to be able to shoot a LEM really well because I would love to carry one. Unfortunately, I'm too impatient to stick with it long enough. For me, I think I could learn to run a LEM P30 if the take up to the wall was shorter and if the reset was a little shorter. I know that reset doesn't matter but with LEM the length of reset seems to add to my trouble running it. I get way to much trigger movement going back and forth and quickly lose any ability to maintain fast and accurate shots.

I respectfully disagree with two points here.

1) There are VERY few shooters shooting the P30 in competition, and I feel pretty safe in saying that the number of really good shooters (M class or higher? GM or higher?) shooting it is pretty damn close to 0%. Competition shooters will shoot whatever gives them an advantage. I know this is going to bring out the "Gaming is different than the streets" crowd and I agree with that as well in some ways. But good shooters are good shooters and competition is probably the best vehicle we have for measuring that. Most guys that are good HK shooters are shooting a USP or the VP9 for a reason.

2) If the LEM had less take up to the wall and a shorter reset, it would be a Glock or M&P or Sig and people would be able to shoot it better. That's my point.

And reset 100% matters.

[MGW]

I respectfully disagree with two points here.

1) There are VERY few shooters shooting the P30 in competition, and I feel pretty safe in saying that the number of really good shooters (M class or higher? GM or higher?) shooting it is pretty damn close to 0%. Competition shooters will shoot whatever gives them an advantage. I know this is going to bring out the "Gaming is different than the streets" crowd and I agree with that as well in some ways. But good shooters are good shooters and competition is probably the best vehicle we have for measuring that. Most guys that are good HK shooters are shooting a USP or the VP9 for a reason.

2) If the LEM had less take up to the wall and a shorter reset, it would be a Glock or M&P or Sig and people would be able to shoot it better. That's my point.

And reset 100% matters.

1) There are more than you might think
2) No. They would still be nothing alike. Hammers 100% matter.

And reset doesn't matter much at all. I don't deal with it well on the P30 LEM though.

[RevolverRob]

Reset doesn't matter. It really doesn't. It doesn't matter with speed or splits or anything else.

There, I said it.

It doesn't matter, because when you select a system you train on that system and learn that reset. The problem crops up, when we try to shoot X system like we do Y system. They're different, don't treat them the same, they need to be treated differently.

You can change systems after awhile, but when you move to something new, you need to focus your mental concentration on that. It's why we don't recommend "rotations" that involve different trigger types. Some triggers are harder than others to master, some are harder for some people to master. Not everyone is wired the same way and perceives the same way and that's important to remember.

I'm a big fan of using what you feel is intuitive. Intuition tells you something, it tells you, "without all of the information, certain things still make a lot of sense", that's telling you something about how you perceive things and how you understand. When something "feels right", your brain allows you to connect the dots with less concentration than it does when something "feels wrong". It's not just a feeling, it's your brain giving you a signal, "If we do it this way, it makes sense and I can free up processing space for other things." Intuition is shaped by experience. So, bear this in mind.

In my experience, people who have a lot of trigger time on DA guns of some type (particularly revolvers) find the LEM much more intuitive than those converting from striker to LEM.

Reset doesn't matter in most contexts. It really doesn't. The fastest shooters in the world have no problem running guns with long resets. When you're gaming for dropped splits to push you between M and GM, then it matters more. But most folks can't shoot accurately enough, fast enough to be worried about things like resets. If you're not an A-class shooter knocking on Master classification - then I can almost guarantee your brain power spent on worrying about resets should be spent elsewhere, like getting more accurate hits on transitions or better at hitting partly obscured targets/zones/etc.

We give way too much brain power to "running the gun". Stop thinking about it and shoot the damn thing. It's a damn gun it's not rocket science. Get it out, find the front sight, cover the target with the front sight, press the trigger, make boom - find the front sight, cover the target with front sight, press the trigger, make boom - repeat until target is done and move on. It really is that simple.

[Bere09]

Reset doesn't matter. It really doesn't. It doesn't matter with speed or splits or anything else.

There, I said it.

It doesn't matter, because when you select a system you train on that system and learn that reset. The problem crops up, when we try to shoot X system like we do Y system. They're different, don't treat them the same, they need to be treated differently.

You can change systems after awhile, but when you move to something new, you need to focus your mental concentration on that. It's why we don't recommend "rotations" that involve different trigger types. Some triggers are harder than others to master, some are harder for some people to master. Not everyone is wired the same way and perceives the same way and that's important to remember.

I'm a big fan of using what you feel is intuitive. Intuition tells you something, it tells you, "without all of the information, certain things still make a lot of sense", that's telling you something about how you perceive things and how you understand. When something "feels right", your brain allows you to connect the dots with less concentration than it does when something "feels wrong". It's not just a feeling, it's your brain giving you a signal, "If we do it this way, it makes sense and I can free up processing space for other things." Intuition is shaped by experience. So, bear this in mind.

In my experience, people who have a lot of trigger time on DA guns of some type (particularly revolvers) find the LEM much more intuitive than those converting from striker to LEM.

Reset doesn't matter in most contexts. It really doesn't. The fastest shooters in the world have no problem running guns with long resets. When you're gaming for dropped splits to push you between M and GM, then it matters more. But most folks can't shoot accurately enough, fast enough to be worried about things like resets. If you're not an A-class shooter knocking on Master classification - then I can almost guarantee your brain power spent on worrying about resets should be spent elsewhere, like getting more accurate hits on transitions or better at hitting partly obscured targets/zones/etc.

We give way too much brain power to "running the gun". Stop thinking about it and shoot the damn thing. It's a damn gun it's not rocket science. Get it out, find the front sight, cover the target with the front sight, press the trigger, make boom - find the front sight, cover the target with front sight, press the trigger, make boom - repeat until target is done and move on. It really is that simple.

I completely agree with this statement and that's exactly why I'd argue that reset does matter. When the reset is significantly farther forward than the trigger break point, people do have to think about the reset and it hinders all of the other aspects of their shooting. Accuracy included. When the reset is at a point that is equal to the trigger break you don't have to think about it as much. You don't need to make sure you let the trigger out far enough to reset it or risk short stroking it. I say this as someone that lets the trigger all the way out on 90% of my shots, but when I'm really trying to shoot the gun fast, I've short stroked a gun on many occasions. It happens far more often with a P30 or a stock P-07 or 09 for example then with a Glock or Beretta or other CZs. Can you train around that? Sure. I think you can train around any trigger, but that doesn't mean it doesn't matter.

How much it matters in specific scenarios can be definitely be argued.

[MGW]

I’ve had trigger freeze on 1911’s shooting Bill drills. Is that because reset matters or because the shooter (me) did something wrong?

[Bere09]

1) There are more than you might think
2) No. They would still be nothing alike. Hammers 100% matter.

And reset doesn't matter much at all. I don't deal with it well on the P30 LEM though.

USPSA does an equipment survey every year at their National Championship match. Below is a breakdown of the firearm brands used by the competitors at the match. I selected Production Nationals because that's the division that someone shooting an HK would most likely compete in.

Firearm manufacturer:
CZ-USA 37%
Tangfolio 37%
Glock 12%
Sig Sauer 9%
Springfield 6%
Walther 6%

There were 230 competitors at that nationals. That means that 14 competitors shot Walther pistols out of 230. HK isn't even listed. I would be willing to guess that the number of competitors shooting HKs was in the single digits. Just a guess, but I'm comfortable with it. I can guarantee that no one in the top 20 shot HK pistols.