“When the state is unjust, citizens may use justifiable violence” by Jason Brennan

[HCM]

I've never been in that exact situation but I have been physically assaulted and had my rights trampled on by police before I was in LE myself. (Granted, I was young and fit a certain profile back in the day.)

Closest I've ever come to the proposed scenario is putting hands on another agent who hit a defendant in cuffs while I was running an op.

I don't think the gov't or its agents get a pass for unwarranted grievous injury. How to address the matter in real time is a slippery slope.

Blues knows this but for the benefit of the others, handcuffed does not automatically equal effectively subdued.

That out of the way, in your situation it is your duty to stop the abuse of a subdued and restrained suspect. A suspect in your custody is now your responsibility. In addition to your duty to protect your suspect now that they are subdued and restrained, you may have a duty to protect your fellow LEO from themselves. Having worked child sex crimes cases I can tell you what we used to call “hate discipline” is a thing.

Regarding the scenario in the article. In the United States, in the early 21st century, the need to intervene in a scenario like that described in the OP is extremely rare.

There is a reason most states and the federal government make resisting arrest and obstructing official duties criminal offenses. If the LEO does you wrong address it in court, not the street. They do this because for every scenario like the one in the OP, you get a hundred thousand assholes who will resist arrest and claim it was self defense. Same for the family members and “looking lou’s” on the street trying to jump into what they “feel” is an unjust arrest. There is a place to address those concerns. It’s called court.

Same thing with enhanced charges for assaulting LEOs, firefighters etc. because without them you have open season on people who have to do a job that is already difficult and dangerous. If you haven’t been in a fight since elementary school or you have never been knocked on your ass and wondered if you are going home today you are probably out of your lane on this.

Like a lot of libertarian ideas it briefs well but doesn’t work out in practice. In fact such an “open season” and “free for all” would result in increases in both the incidence and severity of LE use of force.

[scjbash]

I don't think the gov't or its agents get a pass for unwarranted grievous injury. How to address the matter in real time is a slippery slope.

Been there, and it sucks. In my incident it was two racist, known shitbag officers beating the fuck out of a handcuffed man. They choked him unconscious twice during the beating, which by my phone records went on for over ten minutes. When the guy was awake all he did was cry and beg for them to stop. It was a disgusting thing to watch.

This was close to 15 years ago and my cell phone at the time didn't take video and the pictures came out useless because it was dark. When we tried to stop the officers we were told to go in the house or get some too and then go to jail. I made multiple calls to 911 and eventually a supervisor showed up and stopped them. I saw the guy they beat a few days later and he was in rough shape. His face was mangled, he was limping, one arm was in a cast, and he was holding his ribs. I never saw him again and I don't know if he was one of the several people who sued over incidents with those officers or not.

During the incident I was having the discussion with myself about what the limit was and at what point I was going to have to come back out with a shotgun and hold the officers at gunpoint until someone else showed up. That line wasn't crossed because I didn't know the victim. Had it been a friend or family member that night would have got a lot shittier.

Both officers are still with the department. One is a lieutenant now.

[Totem Polar]

Both officers are still with the department. One is a lieutenant now.

That’s fucked up.


Going on, I am having a very hard time imagining myself using force against an officer of the law, under almost any conditions. Such a circumstance, were it hypothetically come to pass, would necessarily be pretty damn clear cut and obvious to all. As in, the officer is an active shooter, mid-effort, or similar. I’m talking really blatant. JMO.

[willie]

HCM said it all in number 11 above.

[feudist]

Millions upon millions of interactions between the police and citizens yearly. Real force is used a few thousand times.

Almost all of it justified legally and morally.

The ones that aren't generally become cause celebre.

A lot of the ones that are justified become cause celebre too.

There are a lot of people(a metric shit ton on ARFcom) that sit and masturbate to the idea of attacking police officers who are violating their rights.

There's another site, western rifles, that does nothing but advocate for killing cops, politician and anyone who doesn't agree with them.

It's a growth industry.

I oughtta write a novel where the protagonist goes around slotting cops. It would probably be a best seller. Hmm.

[Stephanie B]

If you think you were ever going to be in a situation where you would be taking video of cops beating somebody unnecessarily, then you may want to download one of the “justice now“ apps from the ACLU. I believe that if you take video with that app, it is uploaded in real time to their servers.

So even if the cops see you filming them, take your cell phone, and “accidentally” put a round through it, the video will survive.

[Duces Tecum]

Getting in the middle of that mess is not prudent, you do not know the back story.

I'm trying to think of a backstory that would justify prisoner abuse, and nothing's coming to mind.

[blues]

Been there, and it sucks. In my incident it was two racist, known shitbag officers beating the fuck out of a handcuffed man. They choked him unconscious twice during the beating, which by my phone records went on for over ten minutes. When the guy was awake all he did was cry and beg for them to stop. It was a disgusting thing to watch.

This was close to 15 years ago and my cell phone at the time didn't take video and the pictures came out useless because it was dark. When we tried to stop the officers we were told to go in the house or get some too and then go to jail. I made multiple calls to 911 and eventually a supervisor showed up and stopped them. I saw the guy they beat a few days later and he was in rough shape. His face was mangled, he was limping, one arm was in a cast, and he was holding his ribs. I never saw him again and I don't know if he was one of the several people who sued over incidents with those officers or not.

During the incident I was having the discussion with myself about what the limit was and at what point I was going to have to come back out with a shotgun and hold the officers at gunpoint until someone else showed up. That line wasn't crossed because I didn't know the victim. Had it been a friend or family member that night would have got a lot shittier.

Both officers are still with the department. One is a lieutenant now.

That's a sorry tale, my friend, and doesn't do anyone proud but you for your good intentions.

These "scenarios" are difficult at best. I remember very clearly that right after the Rodney King incident, (which, regardless of what a POS he may have been, was a clusterfuck and tarnished the badge), two black agents I worked with, one a close friend and former partner, used the incident and their anger to justify the beating that Reginald Denny received in the ensuing riots. (Because black folks "weren't going to take it anymore".)

I was appalled by their ability to perform the mental gymnastics required to allow one atrocity to justify another against an innocent party. I told them that they should turn in their badges if they couldn't be colorblind when it came to right or wrong. It left a bitter taste in its aftermath, but eventually my now late partner and I resumed the close friendship we had shared for years prior.

Decisions and actions have consequences, oftentimes lasting far beyond the moment in which they occur. As HCM mentioned above, walking that line is not always easy. I know I've come close to being my own worst enemy in that regard...once going so far as to uncuff a mouthy Colombian trafficker to see if he had the cojones to back up his talk. It wasn't a smart move but he proved that my suspicion was correct that he was all talk and no action. (I had told the other agents on hand not to intercede unless I was getting my ass well and truly whipped.)

[TGS]

I'm trying to think of a backstory that would justify prisoner abuse, and nothing's coming to mind.

Notwithstanding your own indignant righteousness, the simple point is that you might not have all the facts. It's all bravado to write something like that on the internet, it's another to actually apply what you wrote to a developing situation in front of you and parse what you see vs what you don't see.

Example:

My cousin had a death in custody that the media and all the upstanding, concerned citizens of the community took issue with.

On camera and to bystanders, it looked like he was needlessly abusing a prisoner.

In actuality, what you couldn't see from everyone's point of view is that the guy who attacked my cousin was jacked up on PCP, and even when face down
with my cousin mounting his back, the guy was still strong enough to hold on to my cousins pistol. He had already broken the Safariland's SLS hood, so the gun was essentially loose in a bucket, and the guy wouldn't let go of it. That's why my cousin kept hitting him in the back of his head and grinding his face into the pavement, and that's why he hit the fob on his belt to loose his K9 from the vehicle and let him chew on the perp until he released his grip on my cousin's pistol.

So, the problem is this: in your mind, from your point of view as a bystander on the street, that would've been prisoner abuse. You, nor anyone else, is omniscient....and that's why I have a problem with the idea of this thread, that it should be okay to assault police because you think they're abusing someone. True police abuse situations that are outright, undeniably clear abuse to everyone present where you would be clear-cut A-OK to use violence against the cops in order to stop it are exceedingly rare "sentinel events", to use the hot phrase of the year on P-F.com. Much more common are situations like my cousin, where everyone is positive that he was a bad cop abusing someone and violating their rights, when in actuality he was 100% right and just in his actions.


_____________________________


On the other end of the spectrum, most people haven't a clue what their rights actually are, or what the authorities and laws governing police use of force are. Record it all you want, but as a self-proclaimed libertarian, I think ya'll are playing with fire if you decide to intervene with a cop doing what in the review of all the facts was actually a justified action.

[JRB]

I'm trying to think of a backstory that would justify prisoner abuse, and nothing's coming to mind.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Victoria_Martens

I know the ideals should be absolute, regardless of the crime.

But in my mind, raping a 10 year old to death before dismembering her body and burning it is the sort of thing that deserves wood shampoo until muscle failure.