“When the state is unjust, citizens may use justifiable violence” by Jason Brennan

[Otaku.edc]

The book that the article is based upon just came in today.

Some quotes from the preface:

Philosophy brings our hidden ideas to the surface and exposes unseen contradictions. What we think is obvious is not so obvious on reflection. Philosophical inquiry often shows that our core beliefs are a jumbled mess.

These are difficult questions. They are difficult in part because most of us have conflicting beliefs and intuitions about these questions. Most people’s answers to those questions have implications that they are not prepared to endorse.

This book argues a rather simple but possibly dangerous idea: you possess the same right of self defense, and the same right to defend others, against government agents as you do against civilians.

This book has straightforwardly dangerous implications. If I am right, this means that when a police officer uses excessive violence against you or tries to arrest you for a crime that should not be a crime, you may defend yourself. It means that agents working within government may sabotage their colleagues or superiors who act unjustly. It means that you may lie to government agents who would use your information in unjust ways.

We need to be cautious here.

This is a book about self defense and the defense of others.

Self defense and vigilante justice are two different things.

Further, don’t confuse self defense with revolution or violent social change.

This is a book of philosophy, not a manual for self defense. I recommend that you be extremely cautious in applying the ideas of this book. First, I might be wrong. I don’t think that I am, but I might be. Second, even if I a, right, in the heat of the moment, it is often hard to apply moral principles correctly, and you may make mistakes. Third, note that while I am arguing that certain forms of defensive actions are permissible, the state is almost certainly not going to agree. Sometimes what’s morally permissible is also imprudent.

Part of philosophy’s job is to critically examine our most basic assumptions and see if these beliefs withstand scrutiny. Doing so is almost guaranteed to offend.

I’ll post any thing I find of interest as I work my way through the text.

[Trooper224]

And we won't even talk about what happened in the Jordanian rest-stops you visited...

That term conjures so many unsavory images.

[BehindBlueI's]

That term conjures so many unsavory images.

Veering way off topic, but you couldn't make a bigger mess with a cratering charge and the septic tank from an RV that'd been parked outside a Taco Bell for two weeks.

[Otaku.edc]

Adding another book to the stack, due to the reading: Exit, Voice, and Loyalty by Albert Hirschman.

[Otaku.edc]

Three cases that the author points out where “it would be justifiable for the onlookers to put down their camera phones and instead forcefully intervene to stop the police from using excessive as well as reckless force, or in some extreme cases, stop the officers from executing their victims,” (page 26)

Marlene Pinnock
Noel Aguilar
Andrew Thomas

He goes through a number of thought experiments to support his argument, but actual cases people can look up seemed more profitable, at least for people who don’t have the book.

[BWT]

I'll venture into this one - It must've been the blow to the head from earlier today.

I think the chances of having an encounter like this are so remote that this discussion is pointless.

TGS' example of his cousin was perfect, etc.

I love this country and I'm proud of it. One thing that became readily apparent to me after visiting Haiti for a mission's trip last fall was - our Law Enforcement is pretty awesome and I mean that in every sense of the word. In fact, one of the lady's in our class is in LE and I'll tell you the lady is just awesome.

In Haiti we were shaken down by LE (or military really) at a road block to check tags on vehicles and basically extorted. In the Airport we were extorted for our luggage by the Airport officials (not people outside offering to carry out bags, but the people that worked for the airport).

It was a culture where you do not want Law Enforcement involved and you do not include them unless you have to or people in positions of power to approach you.

By comparison, it's just like we're on different planets. Our LE wear cameras so their behavior is documented just about everywhere now. Camera phones are abundant. We have organizations like the ACLU (which is frothing at the mouth to destroy some LE's career). We have the constitution and vast legal system with huge amounts of rights and case precedence. We have people leaving LE in droves because the requirements and pressure put on them are so high. By contrast that with the example of Haiti where you'd get into a position of power like LE there where often people are exploited and extorted for personal gain and it's just a different world.

I realize that as Americans we're very independent to our core as a people and we cast a wary on authority figures. We had to rebel for our own interest that is in our national lineage and - in my opinion - part of our makeup. For better or worse, it's simply how things are.

I don't think that's entirely bad, but what's happening in this thread?

It just makes gun forum members look bad. Are there bad LE? For certain and there have been people murdered in custody. But, like with the power of the internet search this country of 300 million search for statistics on this kind of thing. It's just basically non-existent. Is there prejudice of different kinds in LE? Sure, LE is made up of people, but I'd be really willing to bet it's a lot less than the average group of Americans. I'd bet a lot of LE are more devoted to ideals and morals than they are their outstanding pay check and how highly vaunted the profession is nationally (this second part is sarcasm). It's heavily scrutinized, not the most rewarding, and dangerous work.

The Lady I was talking to after class tonight is a person of character. We talked about principles tonight, her feeling frustration over the low pay, the demanding job, etc. but in the next breathe she talked about how she feels like this is so important to her heart and how she feels like the work she's doing is going to be so worth it - she doesn't know if it's a career but she wants to spend her life helping people.

After my experience in Haiti, I resolved to myself to just thank every police officer I saw after that. I haven't kept that one up as much as I'd like but, let's just say it left an impression.

I dunno man, maybe it was the throw and poor side break fall with my head bouncing off the mat. But I was thinking about this over the last few days and felt it was worthwhile to say.

This isn't angled at anyone or trying to dress anyone down. But, my short time in Haiti gave me some perspective that I'll never forget and I hope maybe it does some here as well. I'm so grateful for that time.

[Otaku.edc]

@BWT: Thank you for the thoughtful comment.

[Joe in PNG]

To follow BWT's post- Logging company sends police to terrorise village leader.


I've not witnessed this sort of thing personally. But, policing here is far, far different. For one, there's not a whole lot of cops in the country in the first place, so don't expect a rapid response... or even a response the same day you called them. And you will probably be asked to provide gas money.