It's not me, it's the gun (so now what?) - Gen4 G17 issues

[Leroy]

You need to buy more guns. You need a matched pair of LTT Elites, a matched pair of S&W 2.0's, a matched pair of CZ Shadows, matched pairs of each of the new hotness Gen 5 Glocks and might as well get a matched pair of 9mm 1911's. I don't know anything about HK's, SIG's or Walthers, but you probably should get some of them too.

edit: Forgot to say you need several J-Frames plus some K-Frames too.

What he said, you need to buy all of these and eventually you will just end up carrying the same G17s you have now because all of the these guns basically do the same thing but you will be able to go to the gun safe and grab whatever you feel like shooting that day.

[spinmove_]

So, I’m not going to have the time to read through the threads right now, but it seems to me that “251” might have one of two issues.

1.) It has a different zero with the same ammo that 505 has a good zero with. Maybe change ammo or confirm zero on the pistol with that ammo. Your rear sight may very well be in a different place on 505 that it is on 251.

2.) The trigger is just different enough on 251 than 505 to screw with you subconsciously and you’re not used to it or it just needs to be broken in more.

The pistols may be CONFIGURED identically, but that doesn’t mean that they were created equal. Play with ammo and zeros on 251 to try to bring it up to snuff. Shoot it more to smooth out it’s trigger better or even just shoot it exclusively for a while to get used to it. Either way, I’d say you probably have less effort fixing this than jumping platforms.

Then again, they’re Glocks, and not the most forgiving or comfortable nor are they magazine capacity restricted state friendly.


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[Wayne Dobbs]

I took my calipers out to the car and measured my rear sights on the slides. 505's rear is .02 further from the left edge of the slide than 251's. That accounts for the windage difference I bet, but not the spread.

The formula for determining sight adjustment/height/etc. is:

Impact Error X Sight Radius/Range = Adjustment Needed

So using your value of .02 as the adjustment already in place, we get:

X (impact error) times 6.5" (your G17's sight radius)/900 (25 yards in inches) = 0.02

When you run the algebra, you should have an impact error of 2.76 inches at 25 yards from an .02 change in sight position.

I use this formula all the time to determine sight heights and amount of adjustment needed to zero irons on a gun, but, there's lots more in play. The first thing is us and our minor inconsistencies that affect shooting performance. Next is the gun, which is not a real decent performer in the precision group department at 25 yards (although the Gen 5s are much better, in my experience). Ammo varies from gun to gun and lot to lot. Light conditions, grip variances and shooting glasses lens grind error (which can be dramatic in some cheaper brands) should also be factored into this. Put all of this together and you can see lots of error.

I would look at adjusting the sights and/or getting a set of Dawsons and work really hard on getting your POA/POI squared away.

[RevolverRob]

Also remember when we're working on confirming accuracy/precision issues we shoot off the bench or sandbag to minimize shooter induced variables. Try running from a rested a position with each gun using the same ammo, before futzing with anything else.

[Nephrology]

Sights on 251 might be a little off. Play with them til it's centered. IMO the left shift isn't really a good reason to ditch this specific gun.

Mechanical accuracy isn't as good in these photos as it is with your other gun, but hard to say. I'd work it up a little more - if you're still convinced 251 isn't as accurate as the other pistol I'd probably just buy a KKM barrel or equivalent. Cheaper than swapping out your Gen 4s for Gen 5s.

I like the idea of the Gen 5 guns and have been tempted to swap before but I'd basically eat a loss of ~$100-200/pistol, which - if I was to swap over all of my glocks - adds up to around a grand. That's a lot of money for differences that I probably will never fully notice on paper or timer.

If you're looking for a reason to ditch the Glocks just do it - I certainly wouldn't ditch your current guns based on this post alone.

[spinmove_]

Sights on 251 might be a little off. Play with them til it's centered. IMO the left shift isn't really a good reason to ditch this specific gun.

Mechanical accuracy isn't as good in these photos as it is with your other gun, but hard to say. I'd work it up a little more - if you're still convinced 251 isn't as accurate as the other pistol I'd probably just buy a KKM barrel or equivalent. Cheaper than swapping out your Gen 4s for Gen 5s.

I like the idea of the Gen 5 guns and have been tempted to swap before but I'd basically eat a loss of ~$100-200/pistol, which - if I was to swap over all of my glocks - adds up to around a grand. That's a lot of money for differences that I probably will never fully notice on paper or timer.

If you're looking for a reason to ditch the Glocks just do it - I certainly wouldn't ditch your current guns based on this post alone.

Not only that, but he’d have to go through and re-vet BOTH pistols and get them BOTH zeroed.

Sometimes there are good reasons to hop platforms. I don’t think this is one of them.


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[jwperry]

RMR both guns, you'll never look back.

[98z28]

Not necessarily. I would want to see that repeated at least two or three range session before I discounted “loose nut behind trigger.” People are funny.

HCM is wise, at least in this case

I went through a phase obsessed with 25-yard accuracy while trying to find a gun/ammo combo that would yield two gen 1 M&P's that would shoot similarly enough to use for carry and training. I found that I could get "consistent" groupings in a gun over one range session, and then get something different at the next. Now I need to see at the same results repeated over three different range sessions before I "know" what a gun will do with particular ammo at 25 yards. I'm sure there are plenty of variables at work (lighting, temperature, etc.), but I suspect psychology is the biggest. Once I've decided a gun won't group at 25, I am will make sure it won't on a sub-conscience level. Not saying that's what you are doing, but I know I have done it.

After ruling that out, it is certainly possible that each gun has particular ammo preferences that are worth investigating.

[ASH556]

Not necessarily. I would want to see that repeated at least two or three range session before I discounted “loose nut behind trigger.” People are funny.

Well shit, now I gotta go to the range again tomorrow

Well, humble pie it is I guess. 100 rounds fired today and what I discovered is targets can be deceiving unless you measure them. I won't bore everyone with a bunch of target pictures, but here are the end results:

1. Both 251 and 505 are 5" guns at 25yds in my hands with this ammo.
2. I moved the rear sight on 251 too far to the right. Need to go back the other way. Thanks @Wayne Dobbs for the formula to figure this out.
3. 505 consistently shoots about 2.6" high at 25yds.


Path forward:
1. Shoot both again next week with different ammo and see if groups improve
2. Fix windage on 251
3. I don't know what I'm going to do with 505. I like these sights, but there's not a shorter TCAP option. I guess I'd just have to change both guns to Dawsons.
4. Depending on how tight I can get the groups with different ammo, I may still sell both and get into some Gen 5's. I hear they're all the rage @GJM, @JHC, @Mr_White I'd rather just spend the $200 difference upgrading to Gen 5's than investing in KKM barrels for these.





I guess I forgot or didn't consider that when I was shooting groups like these that the ammo may have played a factor since it was still just 115 ball. Maybe that Fiocchi was better than Federal 115 AE

[JHC]

SCIENCE!!!


About all the 9mm I've shot in a long while is Fiocchi or S&B. I got on that kick because my 9mm Operator does NOT like Lawman. I've been really impressed with both those Euro brands of 115 fmj.