It's not me, it's the gun (so now what?) - Gen4 G17 issues

[ASH556]

Cross-posted from training journal:

Well shoot, now what? So, after yesterday's post and lots of thought and conversation, I decided I'd try my other Gen4 G17. Other than serial number it is 100% identical to my training gun. It's the one I carry when I'm not carrying a J-frame and other than an Opossum in my MIL's chicken coupe last Thanksgiving (2017) it's not been fired since I cleaned it, lubed it, and chambered a 147HST following my April 2017 class with Gabe. For identification purposes, my usual training gun is 251 and the White class/carry gun is 505.

I decided to warm up with the FAST since I haven't run it in several months. Initially I was just going to run it twice, but the runs were kinda good and so I wanted to see if I could get a really good one. The last one ended up really good! Like, best ever and Coin level good! (If you can't read my chicken scratch, I'm just recording my draw, first split, and reload times, and then noting any misses.)




So feeling all cocky and strong I ran my first B8 out to 25yds and did this (Nicely-centered, decent group, just high):



2nd attempt at same now trying to hold lower 1/3-ish of the black instead of center:



Then I pulled out old number 251 and it all went to hell with an opened group and more leftism:



Finally, with 12 rounds left, I decided to confirm my suspicions with 6 rounds through each gun, 25 freestyle on a vertical 3x5 using a 6:00 hold with 505 and a center hold with 251:

I need to figure out the following:
1. WFT happened to 251? I've documented numerous great 25yd groups with this gun here on this site. The RSA was replaced <2,000 rds ago. What do I do with it?
2. I guess I have to switch sights if I'm going to stick with these guns. 505 would be good with just a skish right drift on the rear, but I don't like that 6:00 hold at 25yds thing. Switch to Dawsons and figure it out with their perfect impact guarantee?
3. Feel confident that it's not me, it's the gun, sell both, but stick with Glocks and maybe move to Gen 5 MOS 17's or 19's or 45's?

[Guinnessman]

Out of curiosity, what is your round count through the problem gun?

[RJ]

...sell both, but stick with Glocks and maybe move to Gen 5 MOS 17's or 19's or 45's?

I voted for this only because I would like to see how you do with a Gen 5. Man that is some smoking work.

[JustOneGun]

Cross-posted from training journal:



I need to figure out the following:
1. WFT happened to 251? I've documented numerous great 25yd groups with this gun here on this site. The RSA was replaced <2,000 rds ago. What do I do with it?
2. I guess I have to switch sights if I'm going to stick with these guns. 505 would be good with just a skish right drift on the rear, but I don't like that 6:00 hold at 25yds thing. Switch to Dawsons and figure it out with their perfect impact guarantee?
3. Feel confident that it's not me, it's the gun, sell both, but stick with Glocks and maybe move to Gen 5 MOS 17's or 19's or 45's?

I will give you a strange look at it.

One of the reasons I go by onegun is because what I saw with police training. I was surprised at the problems using two different guns presented. The same is true for two different carry methods. From lower scores to trying to draw from a phantom holster multigun created a problem with many shooters. That included many high end shooters. Good shooters were able to recover from their screw ups but they definitely had just as much defective mental branching, or whatever we are calling it these days. I had a lot of high end shooters laugh and tell me they missed the first round or two on the off duty qual because they were, "Still shooting a Glock". I wonder how well that would work out in a gunfight?

With that in mind my suggestion from your other post is once the question of what pistol you are carrying is answered then commit to it, full time. Don't carry the full sized gun on the weekends. Carry the j frame. Become the best j frame shooter you can with the time you are willing to allot to it. Any question of back and forth, to me, is more a question of whether you made the correct choice in your first post.

ETA: remember most of us can switch back and forth platforms on the range from day to day. But when distracted, when our life is on the line will it cause problems? Obviously due to my experiments on 1100 unknowing subjects, I believe it causes problems. I believe those problems are hidden in how we test ourselves (or not test ourselves as the case may be).

[JHC]

Have you been shooting 25 yard precision weekly for some time leading up to this?

If not, for sure and maybe even if you have, I would shoot it again for precision at 25 yards one or two more times on different days to confirm. When I've seen sudden anomalies like this in a known solid gun, it's always vanished later and turned out to be a glitch in my software. Especially when I was shooting a different gun type a lot (1911 and then took out a Glock).

[ASH556]

Out of curiosity, what is your round count through the problem gun?

I don't know exactly, I'm not that good of a round count keeper. 8-9K is about right. RSA, trigger return spring both replaced at 5K.

[ASH556]

Have you been shooting 25 yard precision weekly for some time leading up to this?

If not, for sure and maybe even if you have, I would shoot it again for precision at 25 yards one or two more times on different days to confirm. When I've seen sudden anomalies like this in a known solid gun, it's always vanished later and turned out to be a glitch in my software. Especially when I was shooting a different gun type a lot (1911 and then took out a Glock).

@JHC, I've been working on it consistently since the end of October. All Glock all the time (except for that one day I shot my J-frame and even worked 25yd with it too). Honestly, I am, and always have been much more of a rifle shooter (and shotguns, oh God I love shotguns), so I only have the 2 identical G17's, an M&P22, and a J-frame. Thus, yeah all the work was done with the 251 Glock for the last month. Same gun I've put all my rounds through over the past 4-1/2 years. I could see if I'd been switching platforms, but to pick up back-to-back identical G17's and have such a discrepancy in performance? If I'm getting really nitpicky, the 505 gun has a SLIGHTLY heavier wall on the trigger, but that's just the difference in 8,000 rounds (251) vs 1,000 rounds (505) on the striker parts.

[HCM]

I will give you a strange look at it.

One of the reasons I go by onegun is because what I saw with police training. I was surprised at the problems using two different guns presented. The same is true for two different carry methods. From lower scores to trying to draw from a phantom holster multigun created a problem with many shooters. That included many high end shooters. Good shooters were able to recover from their screw ups but they definitely had just as much defective mental branching, or whatever we are calling it these days. I had a lot of high end shooters laugh and tell me they missed the first round or two on the off duty qual because they were, "Still shooting a Glock". I wonder how well that would work out in a gunfight?

With that in mind my suggestion from your other post is once the question of what pistol you are carrying is answered then commit to it, full time. Don't carry the full sized gun on the weekends. Carry the j frame. Become the best j frame shooter you can with the time you are willing to allot to it. Any question of back and forth, to me, is more a question of whether you made the correct choice in your first post.

ETA: remember most of us can switch back and forth platforms on the range from day to day. But when distracted, when our life is on the line will it cause problems? Obviously due to my experiments on 1100 unknowing subjects, I believe it causes problems. I believe those problems are hidden in how we test ourselves (or not test ourselves as the case may be).

My observations of our officers, many of whom carry a P229DAK duty gun and a Glock 26/43 off duty gun mirror yours.

The OP is shooting at a high level and thus sensitive to small changes in performance. SLG previously discussed the diffences between truly shooting /learning “one gun” vs a couple identical or near identical guns.

While the diffence is measurable, for practical purposes the OP would likely max out most LE Agency qualification COF with either gun.

[echo5charlie]

I have been shooting a G17.4 for about three years now, almost exclusively with exception to my j-frame.

Seriously, I would have an occasional range session like yours - the "25 Yard WTF?". I will in the future as well. Has it ever been the Glock? Nope, at least not yet. Initially I thought it was because There Was No Way I Was Causing The Issue.

How do I overcome the 25 Yard WTF?? A couple of ways:

1. Ball and dummy drills. This is the easiest on-the-spot method. You may be surprised.

2. Stop shooting for the day, at least shooting where you want certain results. End the pressure.

3. Shoot a G22 for awhile. For me the increased recoil requires me to focus more on my grip.

I have yet to revisit the range after a 25 Yard WTF? and have the issue NOT go away. Again, YMMV.

[JHC]

I have been shooting a G17.4 for about three years now, almost exclusively with exception to my j-frame.

Seriously, I would have an occasional range session like yours - the "25 Yard WTF?". I will in the future as well. Has it ever been the Glock? Nope, at least not yet. Initially I thought it was because There Was No Way I Was Causing The Issue.

How do I overcome the 25 Yard WTF?? A couple of ways:

1. Ball and dummy drills. This is the easiest on-the-spot method. You may be surprised.

2. Stop shooting for the day, at least shooting where you want certain results. End the pressure.

3. Shoot a G22 for awhile. For me the increased recoil requires me to focus more on my grip.

I have yet to revisit the range after a 25 Yard WTF? and have the issue NOT go away. Again, YMMV.

I've heard essentially the same point made by a very capable and experienced tactical shooter.