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Thread: Chuck Taylor's American Small Arms Academy Urban and Home Defense Handgun Course

  1. #11
    Something that I have noticed is people, as they age, vary greatly in their willingness or ability to continue to evolve. Some stop evolving early in their life, some stop in middle age, some in their 60’s, and some continue to evolve as long as they are alive. However, once they stop evolving, regardless of the age that happens, they often think anything new is a fad, irrelevant or even dangerous.
    Likes pretty much everything in every caliber.

  2. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by John Hearne View Post
    There are several trainers of Chuck's vintage still teaching. Tom Givens and Ken Hackathorn both come to mind as examples. Both Tom and Ken have evolved gradually over time and are not teaching the same things they taught in the 1980's. Chuck seems to be teaching exactly what he taught at Gunsite in the late 70's. FWIW, I trained with Chuck back in the mid-2000's so I have some experience with what he teaches.

    Let's see what one of those "hasn't seen the elephant" guys has to say about the value of competition:
    I’ve trained with Pannone and know he and Mac place a high value on competition. Mac told our class he started competitions at Bragg and encouraged everyone to participate while he was still on active duty. Hearing Pannone in that video say Mike Voigt was one of the best rifle instructors ever is a hell of a compliment! Oh and Voigt was a professional competitor which just backs up the values we have here at P-F.

  3. #13
    Being a Chuck Taylor fan (or a fan of any number of other reputable trainers) doesn't mean that you don't recognize flaws. Just as in any interaction with any reputable trainer there's going to be nuggets of wisdom. Part of developing as life long learners as it relates to all things gun related is being able to notice those nuggets and separate other stuff that may be unsuitable for whatever reason. For example; Chuck Taylor has always had a reputation for being opinionated and controversial. Thats a clue that you need to mindful of that and filter things through your reasoning, logical mind and your own experience.

    We are all full of flaws. For that reason some people hold back and remain quiet revealing nothing or very little. But that doesn't stop type A people from voicing their thoughts.

  4. #14
    Site Supporter Trooper224's Avatar
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    One of the earliest training classes I attended was hosted by Jeff Cooper and Chuck Taylor back in the 80's, courtesy of Uncle Sugar. The training itself was good, since they were considered the pioneering gurus at the time no one had any complaints. I found Taylor to be highly opinionated, but at least willing to engage in a conversation consisting of differing opinions. You weren't going to change his mind about anything, but he at least had the courtesy to hear you out. At the time I didn't know much, so I didn't have much to say, I was really just a sponge. I found Cooper to be pompous and arrogant in the extreme. Articulate and well read, but repugnant in his arrogance. There was his way and that was it, no discussion. At least Taylor had some genuine combat experience, Coopers was actually quite minimal and most of his theories were formulated from competition. I've long maintained that Gunsite wouldn't have survived if there'd been any real competition at the time. Most of Coopers early assistants, like Taylor, Ken Hackathorn, Clint Smith, etc., eventually moved on due to Coopers refusal to adapt his methods based on real world feedback. I think some of that original cadre have now fallen victim to the same kind of closed minded thinking. At this point, the only one of them I'd be interested in taking a class from is Ken Hackathorn. He's the only one still working that seems to have made a concerted effort at adaptive progress.
    We may lose and we may win, but we will never be here again.......

  5. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Blackburn View Post
    Being a Chuck Taylor fan (or a fan of any number of other reputable trainers) doesn't mean that you don't recognize flaws. Just as in any interaction with any reputable trainer there's going to be nuggets of wisdom. Part of developing as life long learners as it relates to all things gun related is being able to notice those nuggets and separate other stuff that may be unsuitable for whatever reason. For example; Chuck Taylor has always had a reputation for being opinionated and controversial. Thats a clue that you need to mindful of that and filter things through your reasoning, logical mind and your own experience.

    We are all full of flaws. For that reason some people hold back and remain quiet revealing nothing or very little. But that doesn't stop type A people from voicing their thoughts.

    Being opinionated is fine. Voicing his thoughts is fine.

    I do have an issue with the idea that you should go to a class knowing you will have to filter out and discard the nonsense or outdated techniques, hoping to find a nugget here or there.

    uploads

    So, the older gentlemen on the left of the photo needs to go to another class to learn that the thumb over grip and Weaver stance is outdated. The lady in the black pants needs to go to a more modern trainer to learn that getting a grip higher on the pistol is preferable. Lady in black shirt and khaki pants needs to filter out the thumb over grip.

    [I'm a little hesitant to make to many generalizations from a single photo or screen grab. I sincerely doubt Taylor is still teaching the thumb over (or is he?). Maybe he doesn't care enough to correct it. I will grant you that sometimes folks of a certain age like the man with the thumb over grip don't want to change and maybe Taylor attempted to square them away with the grip and eventually had to say 'screw it.' However, I watched the video that this screen grab came from and didn't get the impression that it was the "first of the morning" diagnostic run where the trainer hasn't yet had a chance to teach a proper grip. Make your own conclusions. ]

    Unless you have nostalgia for Cooper and Gunsite and the old 'masters' (and I have none), I see no reason to attend his training. I'm sure Reid has a great filter, but what about the novice that goes there and doesn't know any better? Why go to a guy that you have to use a filter when there are so many other trainers that you can take pretty much every thing they say straight to the bank? (And really, if you look closely at the AAR, it's really just talking about how generous Taylor was with his time and the drills they shot. No mention of any great wisdom being passed out. To be fair, maybe there was some and the details didn't make it into the AAR.
    Last edited by BigD; 12-11-2018 at 02:03 PM.

  6. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Trooper224 View Post
    One of the earliest training classes I attended was hosted by Jeff Cooper and Chuck Taylor back in the 80's, courtesy of Uncle Sugar. The training itself was good, since they were considered the pioneering gurus at the time no one had any complaints. I found Taylor to be highly opinionated, but at least willing to engage in a conversation consisting of differing opinions. You weren't going to change his mind about anything, but he at least had the courtesy to hear you out. At the time I didn't know much, so I didn't have much to say, I was really just a sponge. I found Cooper to be pompous and arrogant in the extreme. Articulate and well read, but repugnant in his arrogance. There was his way and that was it, no discussion. At least Taylor had some genuine combat experience, Coopers was actually quite minimal and most of his theories were formulated from competition. I've long maintained that Gunsite wouldn't have survived if there'd been any real competition at the time. Most of Coopers early assistants, like Taylor, Ken Hackathorn, Clint Smith, etc., eventually moved on due to Coopers refusal to adapt his methods based on real world feedback. I think some of that original cadre have now fallen victim to the same kind of closed minded thinking. At this point, the only one of them I'd be interested in taking a class from is Ken Hackathorn. He's the only one still working that seems to have made a concerted effort at adaptive progress.
    I took a class from Ken a few years ago. He said that Cooper refused to change anything because he thought that people would begin to doubt him on everything.

    It's ironic that the exact opposite happened.


    Okie John
    “The reliability of the 30-06 on most of the world’s non-dangerous game is so well established as to be beyond intelligent dispute.” Finn Aagaard
    "Don't fuck with it" seems to prevent the vast majority of reported issues." BehindBlueI's

  7. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by okie john View Post
    I took a class from Ken a few years ago. He said that Cooper refused to change anything because he thought that people would begin to doubt him on everything.

    It's ironic that the exact opposite happened.


    Okie John
    Interesting.

    I listened to Hackathorn on a podcast (maybe on Mike Seeklander's podcast) and he painted a surprisingly (to me) less-than-flattering picture of Cooper mostly due to his unwillingness to change or listen to anyone else.

    Hackathorn would perhaps be the best example of an old school guy that evolved and stayed modern and relevant.

  8. #18
    Member Larry Sellers's Avatar
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    @BigD that's exactly what is still taught here in a regional ASAA group.

    My "punchout" technique, as in draw the gun out to the target was shunned several times with the statement "don't come see me if you ever shoot someone". They're adamant on drawing to a low ready, then up to the target.

    The rock back is still taught and AIWB carry may as well be a infringement on their civil rights.

    I've met some great folks in their classes/clinics, however the whistle and stopwatch thing doesn't do it for me coupled with the "story time" that eats away at every evolution caused me to cease giving them my $$


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  9. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by BigD View Post
    Interesting.

    I listened to Hackathorn on a podcast (maybe on Mike Seeklander's podcast) and he painted a surprisingly (to me) less-than-flattering picture of Cooper mostly due to his unwillingness to change or listen to anyone else.

    Hackathorn would perhaps be the best example of an old school guy that evolved and stayed modern and relevant.
    Exactly.

    It’s interesting that Cooper himself mentioned (in Cooper on Handguns IIRC) being embarrassed by old pictures of himself in a gunfighter’s crouch because better ideas had come along, then locked in to a set of dogmas for the rest of his life, even when the results of shoot-offs in his own classes contradicted what he taught.

    Hackathorn’s stature comes from the fact that he was at the Columbia Conference AND charted a wise course forward from there.


    Okie John
    “The reliability of the 30-06 on most of the world’s non-dangerous game is so well established as to be beyond intelligent dispute.” Finn Aagaard
    "Don't fuck with it" seems to prevent the vast majority of reported issues." BehindBlueI's

  10. #20
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    "Hackathorn would perhaps be the best example of an old school guy that evolved and stayed modern and relevant."

    I offer the following for your collective consideration with no disrespect intended at all toward Mr. Hackathorn. Full disclosure-I have never trained with him. I have trained with Tom Givens on multiple occasions and have also trained at Gunsite and with Clint Smith, TLG, Pat Rogers, Randy Cain, and multiple local/state/federal agency instructors.


    I would respectfully assert the the greatest living bridge between the Cooper et. al. Modern Technique and today is Tom Givens. I wrote the quote below in 2010 after I had trained with TLG (RIP) in Memphis and listened to Tom's mindset lecture.

    ...his [Tom] exceptional grounding in the Modern Technique and his own development of firearm based martial arts as time, equipment and technique continues to evolve and change for the better."


    I would go as far as to say the Tom is THE Professor at the University of Modern Pistolcraft because of his dedication to BOTH the dissemination of knowledge and the creation of knowledge as it pertains to the uniquely American martial art of modern pistolcraft.



    FWIW, I have been told by at least 5 different early 80's Gunsite (250, 350, 499 etc) grads that Cooper was not nearly as strident, in private, with students who had taken more advanced classes. Particularly with regard to the blade-ing of the shooting stance if one had to wear body armor in their job.

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