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Thread: Chuck Taylor's American Small Arms Academy Urban and Home Defense Handgun Course

  1. #41
    Fornicates with shovels Hambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 0331king View Post
    Not to derail the thread but this has always confused me. I have often heard internet people talk about Hackathorn having instructed or help develop Deltas shooting package. Iím certain I have heard Vickers say it. But I have heard first hand from two separate retired Delta guys that the story and claims are greatly exaggerated if not borderline bogus. They both claimed that his only connection to that organization was Vickers who brought him in for a ďclassĒ. The instrumental people they name are the Leathams, Voights and Coolies. They say that those guys made the organization the shooters they are.
    I think the truth is somewhere in between. I don't know the timeline for when Ken started teaching on his own, but I doubt it was when the unit began. He did go there a lot at one point, and I remember him saying that Leatham was training them too. According to Ken they were bringing in anybody they thought could teach them something useful, meaning not just firearms. I never heard him say that he developed OTC or that they relied on him in some special way.

    One of the things that I think some people don't appreciate about Ken is that he's been around a long time so he can explain a lot of history. He has also done training classes for a large number of agencies and some foreign military units. He is very much against what he calls enter-trainment, so if you want to run and gun you won't like his classes. FWIW you also won't like Tom Givens.
    What you don't know about your garage door can kill you.

  2. #42
    Member
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    Feb 2012
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    Madison, Wisconsin
    It's neat to see how the craft of practical pistol shooting has evolved over the years.

    I consider myself lucky in that I shot my first IPSC match in March of 1978, became a cop in 1981 and then in 1982 took a Handgun/Shotgun class with John Farnam and then an NRA Police Firearms Instructor class up at the State Patrol Academy a few weeks later.

    I've watched how equipment and techniques have developed. Lived through the battle between the "martial artists" and the "gamesmen" in USPSA/IPSC in the latter 1980s, saw the introduction of optics in USPSA in the mid-90s, and have attended one or two classes every year ever since.

    It can be interesting to understand how we got here.

    The relevant books on the subject in 1982 or so were "Cooper on Handguns" by Jeff Cooper (the original, longer version with the red cover from 1974), "Survival Shooting" by Tom Givins, and "Combat Handgunning" by Chuck Taylor.

  3. #43
    Site Supporter
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    Dec 2011
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    Bellingham WA
    Tom Givens has definitely evolved his curriculum to reflect lessons learned. I lived in Memphis at the time Tom opened RangeMaster. I expect Iíve taken most all of his classes, including Instructor Development. My most recent class with Tom was last year. It very definitely was not the same class I first took in the 80ís.

    Iíve also trained with Ken, albeit some years ago. His class was good and built progressively. He was good at diagnosing as has been pointed out. He was also good at adjusting the class to the students. We had a very good group of squared away shooters (I some how got overlooked in my amateurness...) and the class involved some things not normally done in that particular class.

    But, what do I know, I still shoot a sort of modified Weaver and I donít carry AIWB...
    Last edited by MolonLabe416; 12-27-2018 at 07:46 PM.
    Semper Paratus,

    Steve

  4. #44
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    Dec 2015
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    Austin, TX
    Quote Originally Posted by Wayne Dobbs View Post
    I did all of Chuck's pistol levels from the mid-80s into the 90s. He's a force of nature for sure and was one of those who quickly accepted that Glock thing early and caused lots of traditionalist heads to explode.
    Wayne,
    I did those classes with you as well, I believe he was doing contract work for EDS and several LE agencies got free slots. I was lucky enough to attend as a young officer. I do remember, and I believe it was one of the courses in Plano that I showed up with a Gen 1 G17. One of the first Ive seen at any class or on the range. I remember Chuck checking it out and not being a fan of it, but then later in some of his articles he embraced the Glock. I found Chuck to be very personable, and I learned a great deal from him. Its good to see him still doing his thing.

    BW

  5. #45
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    Jun 2014
    Location
    Tennessee
    Quote Originally Posted by Hambo View Post
    One of the things that I think some people don't appreciate about Ken is that he's been around a long time so he can explain a lot of history. He has also done training classes for a large number of agencies and some foreign military units. He is very much against what he calls enter-trainment, so if you want to run and gun you won't like his classes. FWIW you also won't like Tom Givens.
    That is what the "Old Guys" have that most young guys don't. A firm grasp of History and Context. They know WHY things were done the way they were done (not just guessing at it from looking at an old picture) and how we got where we are and to some degree where all the skeletons are buried. One of the things people often overlook in their rush to the "newest and bestest" is whether the instructor even has the historical and contextual knowledge to know WHY they are showing you what they are showing you or whether it is just something they are "parroting" from Youtube or Instagram with no real understanding of the nuances or history behind it.

    Someone mentioned Givens' "Survival Shooting". I found a copy of it back in 2014 and got Tom to sign it at a class in 2015 where he addressed it to me something like "Randy, we sure have come a long way since this was published"..... not "this was my magnum opus and it shall never be altered". That shows development and growth not stagnation. And you can still grow and develop and explain WHY you developed...IF you know WHY. The thing is that a whole lot of younger guys have never read it (or a lot of the other "old books"), never heard of it and are not terribly interested in seeing where we came from in order to better steer where we are going......because history is boring you know and it cuts into their Youtube viewing time....

    But then again some of us actually care about passing on knowledge in a holy quest to act as force multipliers for good and to preserve the skills for future generations....even if it is just to a small band of self selectors.....Being a "curator of the combative skills" is a real thing to some of us.

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